Update from Bunk Three
“The Things Which Have Happened Unto Me” Philippians 1:12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;
January 25, 2007
The last six months of my life have been both a challenge and a blessing at the same time. July 13, 2006, the day before my thirty-third anniversary, my wife and I were arrested without notice or warning that the IRS thought we were doing something unlawful. We were shocked to say the least—and even more shocked when the jury found us guilty.
Our attorneys had advised us not to even give a defense because they were confident that the government had not proven its case. Well, that is water under the bridge.
Last week the judge sentenced me to ten years and delayed sentencing on my wife until March 6th. Some details of the case are on www.penaltyprotestor.org. There is still a great chance the case will be overturned on appeal for multiple reasons, but that is in God’s hands.
Previous blogs record the Lord working in the jail. So far, sixteen men have trusted Christ for salvation. The spiritual need in here is staggering to the mind. I encourage everyone to get involved in, or at least support a jail ministry. I know that some are “stony ground” but some “will bear much fruit.”
When Paul was arrested (who knows which time), he wrote to the Philippians that his arrest resulted in three things.
1. The furtherance of the gospel (v. 12)
2. Political peers heard the gospel in the palace and in all other places (v. 13)
3. Believers were made more bold to speak the word (v. 14)
What more could a preacher want? Judging from the blogs our ministry has received, many people are spreading the creation message and winning souls even more since my arrest. One man wrote and said, “When I realized you were not out preaching, God impressed on me to spread the message in your place. I had gotten your slides some time ago, but now I’m using them to preach on creation.”
I know many of you have asked for more details that show our side. The time will come when we will be able to share that information. In the meantime, to those of you who are praying for us and supporting us during this trying time we say, “Thank you.” To those who do not know the whole story but have condemned us as evil doers anyway, please read Job 42:7-8 and Proverbs 18:13.
Eric has done a great job managing things in my absence. He continues to do creation seminars as well. Dinosaur Adventure Land is still open for Winter Park hours, Thursday through Saturday, 10:00 – 5:00. The park hosted about 80 this past Saturday. The spirit of the CSE Team is good, and we still get daily reports of souls saved and lives changed by the simple message of God’s incredible creation. Please keep praying as we continue to learn how all this is for God’s glory.
In Esther chapter three, we see the Jews had already been condemned and sentenced when God stepped in. See Esther chapter seven for the results.
Keep an eye on the blog site for updates to see God at work in this story. I am still in jail, but the Lord’s church is praying. Read Acts 12:5 and see what happens when the church prays for the preacher.
More later,
Kent Hovind
232 Responses to “Update from Bunk Three”
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DrJoe
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 2:51pm:Dr. Kent, your reports have been a wonderful blessing and encouragement to many of us. It is thrilling to see your humble spirit and ongoing ministry where you have been planted, albeit not of your own choosing. We pray for your soon release and that your appeal will prevail. As God enables us, we will continue to support the work of the ministry of CSE. Remembering your bonds, Dr. Joe
mtlionsroar
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 3:24pm:Dear Kent: What a joy to finally hear from you again! And praise God, 16 more added to the Lord’s Kingdom! I’m sorry to hear you are still in jail, but so happy to hear your preaching continues, as I knew it would. Praise God for your ministry, and for you willingness to serve Him wherever you are. I’ll continue to pray for you, your safety, your comfort, your dear wife and family, and staff at CSE. Praying especially for Eric as he has big shoes to fill! What a comfort to know and rest in the fact that nothing is a surprise to God. May God continue to bless you as he has. Praying for those new converts as much.
Much love in Our Lord,
Dee
militarymissionary
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 4:02pm:Dear Dr. Hovind,
I am thankful the Lord is using you in prison. I have been forever changed by your ministry and I thank you for your work in creation evangelism. My wife and I are praying for Jo and we hope the Lord will spare her from sentencing.
Kevin
mtlionsroar
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 4:04pm:Dear Kent:
So happy to hear from you again! Praise God for the 16 new souls added to His Kingdom! Praying for your safety, your comfort, your health, your wife and family (especially Eric-he has big shoes to fill) and the CSE staff. What a joy to know that you continue to do what God has called you to, wherever you are planted. May we all be as faithful! Please continue to update us! We share in your trial.
Much love in Our Lord,
Dee
kjwinkler
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 4:14pm:“For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds” II Corinthians 10:4
To paraphrase a song:
He is an awesome God. He is a mighty King. He’s our sword and shield. He is our strength. So in this trial, be confident, He will fight for you…He’s your defense. So do not back-up, do not back down; state your claim and stand your ground. Shout for joy until the walls come down!
Praise Him until the walls fall down!
Lyosha
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 4:32pm:Hi, this is “Eric” from Sacramento, CA. I just wanted to let you all know that I’ve been keeping up with this blog and I’m praying for you all. My church is also praying for you guys.
God Bless.
– Aleksey
xchampion91
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 5:14pm:Dr. Hovind. I for one am very excited to hear from you and that you haven’t let the Adversary stop you from your calling. You are a man that had the guts to show the faithful what really was happening in this country and I applaud you for that.
I find this situation fascinating to say the least. It always amazes me that God chooses the person who has evil done to them to show forth his glory and power. I think of Joseph in Egypt a lot when I dwell on your situation. It seems to fit quite nicely.
I wanted to let you know that my family and I support your ministry and all of the work you have done. This will probably be my last post on CSE blogs. I have tried to spread the truth to the anti-hovindites out there and have found them to be hard of heart and deaf to the truth. I have decided to find other fruitful ways of spreading the gospel as we are commanded to do. I have cast my pearls to the swine for the last time.
May the lord Christ bless those that continue to fight the good fight here against the nay-sayers that revel in this atrocity. And to all the brothers and sisters in Christ,God bless and keep you.
LShuck
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 5:18pm:Kent,
You keep your chin up. Things are really ramping up in the world, we will be leaving it very soon.
You’ve done more to further the Kingdom of God than many hundreds put together, you’ve given us great material to work with, so it’s up to us to keep on going.
Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn’t be better for me to be in jail. It definately would make you sort your priorities out, and give me way more time to read the Bible. So you really are in the place God wants you at the moment, to reflect and reload, and maybe the last person to get saved before the trumpet sounds may be sitting right next to you!!
We don’t know your whole story, but I’m just going to say that I believe you to be a Godly man, if you wanted it any other way, you could have or would have worked something out with them and not be in there!
I’m so glad to have met you in Fort Wayne, and am SO PROUD to call you an American, a TRUE American, one that is willing to go to the mat for what you believe.
One day real soon this will all be over, and it will seem really insignificant to us then, other than the souls that were brought into the Kingdom because of it.
God Bless You!
Larry
evilution
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 6:20pm:We continue to support the cause of the Lord. It is a blessing to hear from you. We do continue to support your work in prayer. We pray for strength and wisdom in this trying time. We’ve noticed your videos are flooding google- Praise the Lord! We hope the Lord will allow you to continue your work outside bars very soon to spread the last day message of creation and the creator’s soon return.
Ken
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 6:44pm:Dr. Hovind, Thank you for your ministry once again. Above all, God is in control and that should encourage all Christians everywhere no matter what the situation or why. I assume you get tons of mail where you are but I would like to write you a personal letter or email, not to chastise but to minister or to be ministered to. You know, brotherly sharing in the Lord.
But, I know your up to your elbows in ministry and prayer…and letters I’m sure. Keep the blogs comming and remember, “He who kills with the sword will die by the sword, and he who leads into captivity will himself be lead into captivity, this is the patience and the faith of the saints.” Rev.
I knew that God would not put you in that place in vain. I thought that perhaps there where some who needed your particular teaching style that could not get what God has given you from anyone else. The Lord prepared you to minister to them and has prepared them to recieve your ministry. What awesome orchestration The creator of all things still does in the site of men, and still confounds the wisdom of the wise!
Be at peace my brother, and may God continue to bless you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ken
iago9067
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 7:26pm:still praying for you . hope to see you out soon God willing . Pray for us so we will be beter examples for Christ !!!!
Donna Chouinard
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 8:00pm:Kent,
It was so wonderful to hear from you. My husband and I have been following your case and are just heartbroken. BUT, we also know the wisdom and power of the God we serve. “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers. against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places” Eph.6:12, “whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free” Eph. 6:8
I know that you know these things, but I wanted to let you know that we love you and are praying for you. I know of no better comfort to offer than the words in the scriptures. Let me leave you with this encouragement:
“Have I not commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed; for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.” Joshua 1:9
Another servant,
Donna
robtzfamily
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 9:37pm:Dear brother Hovind,
We feel privileged to be able to call you (Mr. Hovind) our brother in the Lord, and are truly thankful to our Lord for His goodness to all of us.
Even if the 16 souls that were saved in prison, were the only reason for this trial you are having to endure, isn’t it all worth it? (“And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap if we faint not” Galatians 6:9)
Our family have been, and will continue to pray daily for you (Mr. Hovind), your family and for the whole CSE team & ministry. May our Lord continue to watch over you as you seek to do (continue) His good Will. – The Roberts family (Australia)
fuzzi
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 9:43pm:Kent:
You are a blessing and an encouragement to many. May the Lord continue to bless you and use you, in your ministry, no matter where He leads you to serve Him.
All of you remain in my prayers, including Jo, your family, and the new ‘Brethren’.
Lor
Nehemiah Jeon
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 9:48pm:We still pray for you, Dr. Hovind.
You are my role model. I thank God for you. And I finally set my goal for my college years. I think I want to major in biology and if God willing, geology as well(where evolution is not so emphasized) to be a great teacher like you and win souls!
I’ve been excited since last month for what the Lord is going to do in my life!
YOU, Dr. Hovind is my inspiration (well, next to the Lord)^^
Lord bless you a bunch,
Nehemiah Jeon
RivDog
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 9:55pm:Dr. Hovind,
Just wanted to write you & let you know of your influence on my life and that of my families. We have all been touched by your ministry, my son especially, reuben is 17 and in his third week of bootcamp at fort benning georgia, please keep him in your prayers. We will continue to pray for you and believe God for favor in your situation, God is not through with you yet brother, you are not alone.
zaculeh
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 10:36pm:Hey Kent,
I am a 17 year old from Sydney, Australia and I’ve been praying for you. Your ministry has strengthened my faith and helped me answer everything about evolution. God bless you Kent. I really want to do what you are doing. We need more people doing your job!
God Bless,
Zac
hevnbown
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 10:41pm:Dear Bro. Kent. “Creation Bootcamp” was awesome! I miss it! & hope the Lord allows you to do more until HIS coming (which I believe to be any moment according to the signs I see…even at the door! {Jesus said})Be encouraged knowing that many of the brethen are lifting you up daily & thank God for the miracle HE is about to do. Remember, “…great is your reward when you suffer for my namesake” our Master said. & yours is going to be mind-blowing!I pray the Lord Jesus put HIS hedge of protection around you 24/7 (& Jo) & that HE let’s you feel HIS presence throughout this ordeal & that HE be glorified in all you say & do.
Rev Jeff Miller
m0rdecai
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 11:07pm:Wow, Dr. Hovind. I have this odd request… Er, when we get to Heaven and the Lord gives me leave from His Glorious Presence. Well, would you put me high up on your list to shake your hand? I know that some of the first will be last and all that, but I would really LIKE to shake your hand… BEFORE it gets worn to a stump by all the others in the world that want to shake it! Thanks, Paul OR.
P.s. We have begun Creation Worldview Education in our home. We have our “Hovind-Half Hour” for all the children. Present are: 1.75 yrs Shem, 4 yrs Saphron, 6 yrs Charis, 9 yrs Willow, 13 yrs Tallulah, my Wife and me when I am not on the road. We watch your Creation DVD’s. We copy and give them to others with instructions to copy and pass on copies with similar instructions.
Praise the Lord Jesus !!!
Harriet
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 11:45pm:Grrreat to hear from you, Dr. Hovind! We pray for you daily. God’s word is a lamp for our feet and a light for our path (Ps.119:105) The “lamp” here in Hebrew was probably a candle—just enough light for one more step. That’s how God leads us, with just enough light for our next step!
Praying for God to shine on your day and illuminate the steps you take!
In Tennessee, Harriet
Ross
Said this on February 5th, 2007 at 11:55pm:Dear Kent, I have been following your lectures and debates for a long time now, and appreciate all the material you put out and the passion that drives you. I was raised a Christian, but no longer believe in the supernatural (and I see no problem with evolution), but I was honestly very sad to hear the news of your imprisonment. I hope that circumstances work together for the good of both you and your wife. Sincerely, Ross
Samphire
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 9:47am:Hi CD,
Not just a fellow Englishman but also a fellow Bedfordian! Each afternoon for many years I would stand at the bus-stop on Silver Street awaiting the bus home from school on the very pavement beneath which was sited John Bunyan’s dungeon in which he spent 12 years of his life. For those who enjoy using Google Earth the exact location is at 52 08 13.18N 00 28 01.69W. The jail itself was demolished about 1850 and all that is left now is an expanse of paving and a brass plate. For no extra charge, a few yards to the south of where the prison used to be 52 08 09.42N 00 28 02.96W is the Corn Exchange where Glen Miller used to broadcast during the War – at 52 10 56.59N 00 29 21.94W you can still glimpse the ghostly outlines underneath the cornfield of the runway from which he last took off – irrelevant but interesting to some.
One of my first vivid memories is the Easter may-pole dancing at Elstow where John Bunyan grew up but I’m not sure that he would have approved of the celebration of such pagan rites which is ironic given how Christianity grew out of Greco-Egyptian Pagan Mysticism.
I am not sure if you are aware but the mansion reported to have inspired JB’s “House Beautiful” still exists as an ivy-clad ruin on a hillside “Hill Difficulty” a few miles to the south of Bedford and which can be glimpsed through the trees as one motors towards Ampthill – it is a sight that always takes me back to my childhood. In those days, we had a tiny car called an Austin 7 and to get up Hill Difficulty meant using every gear available. There were times when I thought that one of us would have to get out and walk but the car always seemed to make it to the top in the end.
Anyway, enough of those Golden Nuggets.
With respect, CD, you are wrong in your allegation that JB was guilty of disobeying a King’s order to take a license to preach. Charles II, a Catholic, was a relatively liberal king and, for his own purposes admittedly, wanted religious tolerance. Indeed, in April 1660 he made a declaration while in Breda in the Netherlands to this effect but Parliament failed to offer the King an Act “for the full granting of that indulgence”. The intolerance came from the Independents and the Quakers as well as the Church of England. Men like Bunyan were regarded as an unpleasant reminder of the anti-clerical elements of the Civil War and the Commonwealth days of Cromwell. Not exactly Jesse James after your Civil War but perhaps you will understand the analogy.
In short, it was a Protestant Christian Parliament which had Bunyan imprisoned. The same act which imprisoned Bunyan also made it an offence not to attend divine service at least once every month. Bunyan was not persecuted for his beliefs but indicted for his failure to comply with a requirement to obtain a building, sorry, preaching licence.
The Serjeant who first sentenced Bunyan was John Kelyng, a known bully who eventually had to appear at the Bar of the House of Commons to answer for some of his grosser actions. Bunyan portrayed him as Lord Hategood in Pilgrims Progress. Like KH, Bunyan refused to enter a plea and so got three months in the jail but could have walked out the day following sentence if had agreed to go to church and not to preach but, being a fully-paid up member of the awkward squad, he chose to remain in jail. Indeed, probably unknown to himself, he had a great friend in Paul Cobb who was the Clerk of the Peace and who tried to get him to conform and who, when JB refused, managed to keep him out of the assizes against JB’s wishes. Had JB come up before the judges he would probably have been transported (possibly to America) and had he refused that sentence he might have been hanged. Fortunately, he was saved from himself.
Why did he not submit to the law and rejoin his family living only a couple of hundred yards away at the far end of Mill Street? In his own words, speaking of “the grounds and principles for which I have suffered” he said “….I cannot, and dare not, now revolt or deny the same on pain of eternal damnation”. In other words, in his view all those who disagreed with his beliefs, including Christians, were all bound for the Orpheic underworld. He would rather his wife and children lived in deep poverty than he should give up his prejudice. Given the extremely limited extent of his education and reading I am not sure that such an attitude is particularly admirable.
In answer to your question, I did read Pilgrims Progress many years ago. It is not a book I enjoy. Of John Bunyan’s writings I prefer his Grace Abounding which, particularly for a Bedfordian, is a fascinating document. In so far as Grace Abounding is factual, I prefer the factual to the allegorical.
JB really was a very strange man. Whether he ruined his life or not would be a question for him rather than me and I think that I know what his answer would have been; his wife and children might have given a different answer. However, in his defence, he did end up as Pastor of St Paul’s Church in Bedford which, as it happens, was my old school’s Church so, perhaps, he greatly mellowed in later years from the hell-fire preacher of his youth.
Kind regards
Samphire
kid cool
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 9:54am:Now that Dr. Hovind is no longer traveling all over the place and has the time to actually engage in a written debate on his Hovind Theory, will he? Dr. Hovind has received many requests over the years and I would like to know. I think it would add substantially to his credibility to defend his views via letters/emails. It did hurt Paul.
Also, how about Eric? Is he going to continue to refuse to engage in written correspondence on the validity of these Hovind theories?
koenraad
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 10:29am:Dear Dr.Dino & CSE Team,
I hail from a land that knows poverty and struggle, but not like i’ve seen this weekend.
I saw footage of where captives were held during the reign of Joseph Stalin, and heard stories related to the abuse, murder and discarding of prisoners/christians that would make you sick to the stomach.
The startling truth is that this type of tyrany is still going on today, in many countries around the world. In some cases it is more severe than others, and in your case it a blatand disregard for the constitution that the country was founded on.
It seems the more we live in this world the more evil it becomes, but alas the coming of our Lord is upon us!
Your friend
Koenraad
Samphire
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 11:05am:Jason
I am surprised at your criticisms. The Three Laws of Thermodynamics are a description of what exists and not how it came to exist. The Laws are not relevant to Big Bang Theory.
McGurk
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 11:09am:Eric,
If I were you, I would delete this present thread. Your mother has not been sentenced yet, and it seems to me that your dad is still proclaiming that anyone who has anything has anything bad to say about him “doesn’t understand the situation.” That is to say, your father still seems to be proclaiming from prison that he has done nothing wrong.
I think this puts your mom in a precarious position. Everything on the internet is public domain and common knowledge, and I would not be suprised if the judge in this case is reading all of these postings. If your father is not contrite, the judge may assume that your mother is not contrite either. And, in that case, she could wind up spending some hard time in prison.
You can do what you want, but if it were MY mother who was coming up for sentencing, I wouldn’t allow anything to be posted on the internet that could be construed as “thumbing my nose at the judicial system.” I urge you to consider my words carefully. You (and your mom) have a lot to lose by running this message board (before her sentencing), and very little to gain, in my opinion.
Sade Tennyson
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 12:46pm:Brother Kent,
It’s refreshing to hear from you again….and I thank the Lord for the grace He has given you thus far.
You’re right so many are more determined to do more by using the materials that you’ve given us…
I’m more determined to make these materials available to people around me…Will update you when things hvae started fully…just want to keep it quiet to avoid uneccessary stumbling block by the enemy.
Please Dr. Hovind, kindly keep the lawyers points to appeal silent at the moment as I sense that the anti- Hovinds are using information siphoned to further their evil plot…..The Lord will grant you divine wisdom.
I know the enemy fights dirty & its a pity that some brethren have not learned not side the enemies of the Gospel.
Keep up the work in the field & the Lord will sustain you.
Sade Tennyson. London UK
jparry
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 1:25pm:Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ!
I heard about this site from a mutual friend we have at Chick Publications and I am sad to hear about your sentence. However, I believe God is doing a great work through you even behind bars, so to speak. We are going to continue to pray for you and your wife and your son who now is carrying the torch! I believe you are purposed to be where you are, there must be much need in prison for The Lord and you are just the person to do it!! You are a blessing to us all and the kingdom of God! Enjoy God’s Blessings!
Jennifer Parry
Canada!!
Ken
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 1:30pm:Hey Jason,
“My children leave their teachers at school without good answers for their religious faith (evolution).”
My kids do the same thing even my 9 year old daughter in elementery school tells her teachers that she believes the Bible account, my 11 ear old son in middle scool challenges his friends and his teachers. My highschool daughter, 17, challeneges her teachers in many topics from a Biblical point, not just evolution.
Dr Hovind’s ministry has helped me teach my children to be confident, educated, and bold. I hope many people will write posts about what their children have done because of this ministry, I think it would be encouraging for the whole Hovind family and the staff.
Peace all, in Christ Jesus!
From Texas, Ken
Judith
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 2:02pm:The glory for the Lord.
We pray for you and your family. We know God is with you. He is working like I haven’t seen before in my last 10 years of christian life. The Lord has used your work for his glory and to saved people around us too, here in Quebec.
As you know, God has the last word on your case. Not the judge or the lawyers or anyone else.Amen.
558_thoughts
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 3:11pm:Through these last two months, many have taken in hand to give their words concerning the troubles that have befallen Kent Hovind, that he is in prison. Some say he should not be in prison; others say he hath broken the law; and others, divers other things. But I know the true reason that Dr. Hovind is in prison. It is this: God punisheth him for speaking in a new and base tongue.
Dr. Hovind is one of but few that acknowledge only the true word of God, even that of King James. He knoweth that the tongue of this generation is wicked, and corrupt, and it grieveth the Lord to hear men speak it. He refuseth to acknowledge those books, which call themselves the word of God, yet are written in the corrupt new tongue. He doeth well in this. Yet when he speaketh, or writeth, he careth not what tongue or language he doth use, and followeth the men of the world in all their peculiarities of language.
Dr. Hovind committeth wrong, when he saith, you, while he speaketh to but one. I have heard no thee, nor thou, from his mouth, save when he doth quote the word of God. When a man speaketh to but one other, he must say, thou, and thee. It is so in the word of God: therefore what is man, that he doth alter it?
Why is he wise with the word of God, yet unwise with his own speech? Doth he fear that men may understand him not? That cannot be, for he believeth that men may read, and understand the King James scriptures, with none other to give them the meaning. If they understand God, when he speaketh the perfect tongue, why should not they understand Dr. Hovind, should he speak the same tongue?
Some may ask, Is it not enough to do well with the word of God, and not mind language in other cases? But it is only a slothful Christian, that applieth not the word of God unto his life. It is not a hard thing to learn the perfect tongue, if thou readest the word of God. Whatsoever is therein, is the language that thou must use.
It is a troubling matter, that many other men speak not the perfect tongue of King James, nor use the perfect King James scriptures, and so do worse than Dr. Hovind, yet are not in prison. Perhaps God hath chosen to punish Dr. Hovind, and not others, for that Dr. Hovind hath both good truth, and dangerous falsehood; for falsehood is most dangerous when coupled with truth.
Therefore let all them that speak the tongue of this generation repent, and turn from their wicked language, and receive the blessing of God.
GaryMurray
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 3:18pm:bloghog
Said this at 9:30am:
——————————————————————————–
I see you are still denying that you did anything wrong. Then again, a man facing ten years probably goes through the same stages of grief as anyone. Right now you’re between anger and denial. Soon will come acceptance and then, maybe you’ll realize that you’ve been living a lie and will ask forgiveness from the God you claim to represent.
Bloghog, just out of curiosity. If you’re such a strong believer in evolution, or at least the opposite of creation, why do you spend so much effort and time criticizing creationist, or better yet criticizing Hovind? I would think this spare time you have here would be better utilized in researching evidence as it pertains to your idea of existance (not sure of what evolutionary theory you believe).
It seems in your statment there was a context of joy in the ‘demise’ of others. I can only assume it is because an adversary of the Creationist and an enemy of the Evolutionist faces a possibly exclusion from the evo/creat argument and day to day battle of who is right and when you will admit you’re wrong.
That’s ok… There was no loss on our side. Hovind’s rebuttal to the different evolution theories are sound and have stood strong without modification for over 10 years. You see, we might have lost a foot soldier, but the defense has already been put in place, and its pretty solid.
All I can say, bloghog, is that I pray to the good Lord above Christ saves your soul and you accept him one day. That way you’ll take to our side and litter the Evo’s blogs with jargon and rhetoric.
God loves you, Bloghog, as do I.
God Bless all!
GaryMurray
robur
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 4:09pm:Amen.
As Hovind said in one of the jail audio recordings; “If I am crucified, I want people to know why. I want my message to continue. I want people to say wow – Hovind was right! Lets spread these tapes around!”
Just wanted to let everyone know about a new site starting up dedicated to spreading the truth:
http://FreeHovind.com
FreeHovind is designed to make it fun and easy for people to view and share all of Hovind’s materials for free, as well as learn about Hovind’s case. The site already has an easy to use “watch” section that allows users to view streaming videos of all Hovind’s seminars, a “downloads” page so users can watch movies offline, a “share” section for printable banners and handouts, an “Action” page to get people involved, links to other informative sites, and more!
pastortom
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 4:26pm:Hi Kent and Jo and family! This is Tom from East Peoria. Kent led me to Christ at good old EPCHS over 3 decades ago, and I know God has gripped his heart and his life for all those years. I don’t
understand everything that is happening, but I do know your heart, Kent. I know that your passion
for Christ drives you; not money. No copyrights on any of your material; no prearranged speaking fees; no demand for lavish accommodations on the road. I believe you sincerely believe your position
in this dispute with the IRS. Your situation is similar to the apostle Paul’s in Philippians where he observed that Christ was being preached irregardless of the motives of the “preachers.” May your present trials be another way for God’s kingdom to be advanced. You and Jo and your family are choice servants of the King, and He will never leave you nor forsake you. Tom
Samphire
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 5:04pm:koenraad
Said this at 10:29am:
“Dear Dr.Dino & CSE Team,
I hail from a land that knows poverty and struggle, but not like i’ve seen this weekend. I saw footage of where captives were held during the reign of Joseph Stalin, and heard stories related to the abuse, murder and discarding of prisoners/christians that would make you sick to the stomach.”
What have Christians to do with it? Stalin was indiscriminate in selecting those millions he murdered.
“The startling truth is that this type of tyrany is still going on today, in many countries around the world. In some cases it is more severe than others, and in your case it a blatand disregard for the constitution that the country was founded on. It seems the more we live in this world the more evil it becomes, but alas the coming of our Lord is upon us!”
koenraad, perhaps you need to be more circumspect. The case was brought on the basis of the law and is not in breach of the constitution. The USA, for all its failings, is still a country based on the rule of law. KH is confident that he will be released before too long and he may well be right but, whatever the outcome, the law will be exhausted before KH gives up. If he is proved right then he will regain his freedom. He is not in jail because of his religion: he said as much at his sentencing hearing, a point I have made more than once on these web pages. If he were then he would not be permitted to broadcast to the world that he has won some 16 converts. You Christians do need to grab hold of the handle of logic rather than sentiment when making your arguments.
As for you, Ken, I don’t know why you send your kids to school; they obviously know far more than their teachers – even at the great age of 9. Perhaps it is you who should go back to “elementery” school to learn the basics. I suspect that your children’s teachers are very kind and do not criticise their comments for fear of showing them up in front of their classmates. On the other hand, they may not have wasted their time on creationist apologetics and therefore do not have ready answers to your children’s unsophisticated supernatural fantasies. Either way, you shouldn’t boast of their ignorance.
Ron Denton
Said this on February 6th, 2007 at 6:19pm:Samphire
You have started reminiscing about Bedford of bygone days so I will add my memories. I moved away from the town almost 30 years ago but remember a short length of wall behind Dewhurst; the butcher’s; shop which was claimed to be the last remains of the town jail where John Bunyan was held. Has it since been demolished? Of course, the cell door, his violin, and other artifacts are in the Bunyan Meeting Museum in Mill Street.
In her book “In the steps of John Bunyan; an excursion into Puritan England” the author, Vera Brittain, said she believed that the interpreter’s house was a large property which fronted St. John’s Street. It survived until the early 1970s when the firm I then worked for had it demolished to build an office block. I was one of the firm’s surveyors and took the opportunity to archive the house and gardens on 8mm cine stock. I believe that the reel still exists, though my projector bulb long ago gave up its filament.
I am sure that Bunyan would have approved of the Elstow may-pole festival in his younger days. He recorded: I think it was in “Grace abounding …”: that he found it hard to give up dancing on the village green – didn’t he call it his darling sin? Incidentally, I also filmed the May Queen pageant on the green from the upper window of the Moot Hall which housed the Bunyan Museum.
Did you know that in 1904 ( before my time! ) three ministers were committed to St. Loyes prison in Bedford for refusing to pay their property rates. They objected to the way the money was spent. “Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose” as our brother Kent has found out.
To Kent and the crew – you are almost constantly in my thoughts and prayers. Hard though it must be to endure this separation I know that God will use it to glorify his name and extend Christ’s earthly kingdom.
“And though they take our life,
Goods, honour, children, wife,
Yet is their profit small;
These things shall vanish all,
The city of God remaineth.” (Thomas Carlyle’s translation of Martin Luther’s “Ein’ Feste Burg”)
Ron Denton
Bedford Modern School 1950 to 1960
Fundy
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 5:27am:We’ll be praying for you Kent. Thank you so much for all the work you’ve done, and God bless you wherever He may lead you.
Fundy
Eugene III
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 5:37am:Dr. Hovind,
I pray for you. Do not give up!
May our Lord give you strength and wisdom!
I received our seminars several years ago. Since that time I have tried to spread them throughout Ukraine. Several people came to Christ through this ministry, one of them is in our church!
I hope you will be released. I’m not aware about American laws, but is there possibility TO BE RELEASED ON BAIL?
Praying for you,
Eugene
Ukraine
Donetsk
Sade Tennyson
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 5:38am:Oohhhh…I was writing & I had a feeling that I should send what I wrote before I loose the page, I ignored & continue & it happened……I pray that I didn’t loose all I had written though I didn’t submit it before the browser just closed……You know the enemy is angry……well I thank the Lord Jesus for it!!!!
Well, I’ll try & write some of it again!!!!
Dr Hovind & Sister Jo,
Calvary greetings in Jesus name.
Sister Jo, as March draws nearer, kindly read these scriptures as often as you can
Philipians 4:6 -7
6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
I use these scriptures in times of anxiety….
It’s a priviledge to suffer shame for the cause of the gospel, though to the world its a shame but to the Lord its a glory
Ac 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
A time will come for you also Dr Hovind to depart from the presence of the council rejoicing for being counted worthy of the Lord to suffer shame for His name.
Be encourage with this Hymn
O courage, my soul, and let us journey on,
For tho’ the night is dark, it won’t be very long.
O thanks be to God, the morning light appears,
And the storm is passing over, Hallelujah!
Refrain
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
The storm is passing over,
Hallelujah!
O billows rolling high, and thunder shakes the ground,
The lightnings flash, and tempest all around,
But Jesus walks the sea and calms the angry waves,
And the storm is passing over, Hallelujah!
Refrain
The stars have disappeared, and distant lights are dim,
My soul is filled with fears, the seas are breaking in.
I hear the Master cry, “Be not afraid, ’tis I,”
And the storm is passing over, Hallelujah!
Refrain
Now soon we shall reach the distant shining shore,
Then free from all the storms, we’ll rest forevermore.
And safe within the veil, we’ll furl the riven sail,
And the storm will all be over, Hallelujah!
Copied from http://www.cyberhymnal.org
Remember the Lord Jesus Christ is with you at such a time like this……..He has promise dnever to leave nor forsake you Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
All things work out together for good to those who love the Lord….I believe the current situation has made more people to keep bombarding the throne of grace & mercy in prayers for you & the family daily which most were not doing before…at least I am one of those who were not faithful to praying for you daily before but this situation has stirred me up to do that…I pray that we won’t relapse back after your release in Jesus name. Amen.
Please remember to pray daily for the salvation of the souls of the key people you know have been used by the enemy to plot against you….surely the devil will not be glad when we pray for them & who knows the Lord my have unique tasks for them like Saul turned Paul….remember to pray for the judge Casey as well…I trust the Lord to enable me to pray for three of them faithfully as well…
Eric
The joy of the Lord is your strength. He strengthened Joshua to carry out the task, He will strengthen you as well & send His angels to assist you in Jesus name. Amen.
You are more than conqueror through Jesus Christ & you are well able to carry out the task …though the giants may be on your way to hinder..God will expose, disgrace them & give you the victory. The Lord will expose every unfriendly friends like Samballat & Tobias who may want to build with you but are enemies in disguise & the Lord Jesus will give you the victory to overcome their strategies in Jesus name. Amen.
Kent Jnr & the rest of the family as well as CSE family, we do remember you in prayers & the Lord Jesus Christ by the power by which He is known to be the mighty God will sustain you all. AMEN.
Dr Hovind, keep on working for the Lord in this new field & know that your labour is not in vain….we are encouraged that you are still pressing on in the task of winning souls for the kingdom of God…
Pr 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.
Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Remain close to the Lord Jesus.
Sade Tennyson. London UK.
darling
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 8:20am:Jason said this at 8:06am, Feb6:
“A friend who has a PHD in micro biology… is found to contradict himself while explaining how the laws of thermodynamics apply to the big bang theory…”
Isn’t that like complaining that a lawyer contradicts herself whilst explaining how to perform open heart surgery?
GaryMurray
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 9:01am:Samphire
Said this at 5:04pm:
——————————————————————————–
He is not in jail because of his religion:
You misunderstand the statement, Samphire… He is in jail because of his religion. It is his religious beliefs which are in contrast with the Law. As he should, Kent put his religion in Christ first before law of man. So in actuality the persecution is caused by his religion. To some they might marvel, why not just obey the law and not be held in contempt thereof; but what they don’t understand, that is exactly what he was doing, just not the law of man.
he said as much at his sentencing hearing, a point I have made more than once on these web pages. If he were then he would not be permitted to broadcast to the world that he has won some 16 converts. You Christians do need to grab hold of the handle of logic rather than sentiment when making your arguments.
– I’m sorry, but I highly doubt he has a laptop hooked to WiFi sitting at ‘bunk 3′. Could it be that he isn’t directly posting, but in his absence his family is receiving his statements via visitation, and they posting them on his behalf? Hmmm…
As for you, Ken, I don’t know why you send your kids to school; they obviously know far more than their teachers – even at the great age of 9. Perhaps it is you who should go back to “elementery” school to learn the basics. I suspect that your children’s teachers are very kind and do not criticise their comments for fear of showing them up in front of their classmates.
– I don’t believe Ken was boasting that his children are more intelligent than the teachers, I believe he was simply stating that the evidence against evolution (regardless whether you accept it or not) is profound enough that even those who teach it can’t prove it, or deny its inaccuracies. Like all Fathers (just like me) I would be proud that what I have taught my children is sticking with them and they can utilize it at an early age.
On the other hand, they may not have wasted their time on creationist apologetics and therefore do not have ready answers to your children’s unsophisticated supernatural fantasies. Either way, you shouldn’t boast of their ignorance.
– Again reading his post, I don’t see where he is boasting of the ‘ignorance’ of a teacher rather the subject matter they teach. Secondly, the stated argument is correct! If indeed evolution is so sound and is worthy to be taught in schools, teachers should be able to defend it against all other ideas of our existence. If ‘facts’ in any textbook can be challenged even by a 9 year old and leave the professionals baffled as to a valid response, that subject matter doesn’t need to be taught. I am not overstating, I am saying the textbooks need to stick to what is observed, proven and fact. Not what the government and the scientific communities accept to be the best result.
I was looking through a 2006-07 Biology book for 9th graders. My Sister-In-Law is in public High School in Georgia. I spent the better half of my Saturday night at the In Laws reading through her Biology book. There are about 1,000 pages, give or take. I was astounded to see that from page 380 to (basically the end) the chapters were in relation to the Origin of Life. I jumped one chapter to the next and saw billions of years of evolution unfolding with each turning page. I was able to learn all about each individual theory of how we evolved to where we are today.
Note: ‘How we Evolved’. There was never any mention otherwise, to suggest that there was any other form of creation.
It surprised me (not really) to know that even today they STILL use out-dated and false evidence that had been disproved or left behind by the scientific community, ages ago. I finally found a ‘glimmer’ of hope, and I do mean glimmer. If you sneezed while turning the page you would have missed the small exurpt in the left hand column which titled “Other ideas in the origin of life”. Creationism had 1 paragraph (that’s 4 sentences) explaining the idea of a designer or a creationist rather than nothing. Both ideas, creation and evolution have strong evidence that support both, but neither of them (in my opinion) outweighs the other, so either both should be taught and let the individual decide after he/she receives the facts, or teach neither and let God figure it out.
What gets me more than anything is that with every evolutionary stated ‘fact’ or scientifc find in the Biology book, the end of every paragraph in summation, states either “Thought scientists can’t prove this without observation” or “We’ll never know exactly whether this or that is true”. Well if they’re not sure, it shouldn’t be taught as the foundation in our school systems.
I did find humor that in one chapter speaking of Spontaneous Generation, they specifically state that this theory was wrong and there is “no way for life to generate spontaneously”, but in the very next chapger, I was introduced the single-cell organism theory, where billions of years ago, exploding into life as we know it today, creation began from one single organism.
God Bless,
Gary Murray
Curious about the book I’m referring… Here is the ISBN: 0-007-825925-8
Samphire
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 9:10am:Hi, Ron
It’s very nice to hear from you. Another survivor of the JET era.
Am I correct in saying that Dewhursts the Butchers (who, by the way, went into administration last year) was towards the bottom end of Silver Street opposite “Ovr” Braggins? If so, I would be surprised if the wall of which you write would be visible there. It is my understanding that there was a small exercise yard to the jail which extended a few feet short of Burtons which was four or five of shops to the right hand side of Dewhursts.
I think that I must be right because I have a couple of photos in front of me taken in 1911 showing the wall of the prison just before it was demolished. It is about 10 feet high and 15 feet long and was the last remaining remnant.
I also have Eric Stockdale’s Study of Bedford Prison1660-1877 published in 1977 which I “acquired” from the University of Chicago Law Library. It has a block plan showing the prison extending westwards from the High Street to an entrance path alongside the Bull Inn which was demolished in 1928 for the Montague Burton development (where my father bought me my first suit) so the wall you saw could not be part of the jail.
I also have a few photos of St John’s Street. Could the building you refer to be St John’s Rectory? My old French master, a lovely man called Mr Kuhlicke who you will doubtless remember with great affection, used to live there before the Second World War. It was demolished in 1967.
You are right about JB and his dancing but do you think that it referred to May Pole dancing? I assumed that perhaps it was Morris Dancing.
You know the statue of Bunyan in St Peter’s Green? The local urchins used to try to make it come to life by shouting “Old John Bunyan, You’re a funny-un, If yer come down, I’ll give yer an un-y-un”. I was not one of those urchins.
I did not know about the three dissenting ministers. My mother used to be a prison visitor so knew the St Loyes prison well. I remember the day in 1962 when Hanratty was hanged there. On the morning of the execution we were not allowed upstairs in the New Science Block because from there you could see the walls of the jail. That all seems very weird now.
You are probably aware of the occasional pensioners who still get incarcerated in protest because their pensions are not rising as fast as the rates. As you rightly say, nothing much changes.
What House were you in? I was originally a Bletchley Line boy so was in County House and walked along St Johns Street twice a day to and from the station in the days of steam trains but eventually moved into Bedford and joined East House.
Finally, you should get that film stock copied immediately before it disintegrates. Mr.Kuhlicke would love to have had it in his museum and the school would doubtless now like it, too.
Kind regards
Samphire
Samphire
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 9:12am:Hi, Sade
To prevent future disasters it is a good idea to write your post into Edit or Word and save it from time to time and then cut and paste it into the comments window once finished. I, too, found this out by bitter experience.
Samphire
samuel
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 9:31am:Good afternoon to you all, God bless you!
Just a little comment to 558_thoughts
558_thoughts seems to think he knows why Dr Kent Hovind has been imprisoned. His theory is basically this: God has allowed this because he doesn’t speak, teach or preach in Olde English.
Tell me 558_thoughts, do you really believe God frowns on people because they do not or cannot speak or understand Old English?
Let’s take it a step further; Do you speak Hebrew and Greek?
Gods word is truth. Gods word is life. Gods word is not bound to one language past or present, one style of writing or particular way of verbal annunciation. Gods word can be proclaimed not only in word and tongue, but in spirit, deed and truth.
John 4:23-24: But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Dr. Kent Hovind does worship our father in heaven in all these ways and more. And he does an absolutely brilliant job of relaying the love and message of God to us the best way he knows how.
Your hypocritical attitude regarding Dr Hovinds method of preaching the gospel only stifles your own spiritual understanding of God and his message to the world.
John 3:16-7: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
God loves us all folks, no matter what colour you are, no matter what language you speak or what style you speak it in, no matter how far you’ve strayed or how bad you think you’ve been, no matter who condemns you or who may think you don’t deserve salvation, despite your pride, prejudice, ignorance or stupidity. The Lords word, his message of love has no bounds, and it is certainly not bound by Olde English.
The only thing God cannot abide is sin. Wickedness and evil cannot and will not be tolerated in heaven. God knows sin will only spiritually and physically hurt and damage us and because he loves us he doesn’t want us to suffer in eternal sin. This is why he gave his son Jesus to the world, to manifest his word in flesh and to take upon himself, the sins of the world.
Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
It really is THAT simple folks, and don’t EVER let anyone tell you otherwise, salvation is FREE and EASY to accept – to anyone who will accept it.
God bless and keep you all in prayer and praise.
With love from,
Sam, UK
JR Turner
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 11:51am:“The agency that is so strict on the way Americans keep their books cannot even pass a financial audit”.
-Ted Stevens, Republican Senator from Alaska
… – - – …
“Eight decades of amendments… to [the] code have produced a virtually impenetrable maze… The rules are unintelligible to most citizens… The rules are equally mysterious to many government employees who are charged with administering and enforcing the law”.
- Shirley Peterson, Former IRS Commissioner, April14, 1993 at Southern Methodist University
… – - – …
“Inflation has now been institutionalized at a fairly constant 5% per year. This has been determined to be the optimum level for generating the most revenue without causing public alarm. A 5% devaluation applies, not only to the money earned this year, but to all that is left over from previous years. At the end of the first year, a dollar is worth 95 cents. At the end of the second year, the 95 cents is reduced again by 5%, leaving its worth at 90 cents, and so on. By the time a person has worked 20 years, the government will have confiscated 64% of every dollar he saved over those years. By the time he has worked 45 years, the hidden tax will be 90%. The government will take virtually everything a person saves over a lifetime”.
- G. Edward Griffin, historian and author of “The Creature From Jekyll Island”
… – - – …
“The Founding Fathers of this great land had no difficulty whatsoever understanding the agenda of bankers, and they frequently referred to them and their kind as, quote, ‘friends of paper money. They hated the Bank of England, in particular, and felt that even were we successful in winning our independence from England and King George, we could never truly be a nation of freemen, unless we had an honest money system. Through ignorance, but moreover, because of apathy, a small, but wealthy, clique of power brokers have robbed us of our Rights and Liberties, and we are being raped of our wealth. We are paying the price for the near-comatose levels of complacency by our parents, and only God knows what might become of our children, should we not work diligently to shake this country from its slumber! Many a nation has lost its freedom at the end of a gun barrel, but here in America, we just decided to hand it over voluntarily. Worse yet, we paid for the tyranny and usurpation out of our own pockets with “voluntary” tax contributions and the use of a debt-laden fiat currency!”.
-Peter Kershaw, author of the 1994 booklet “Economic Solutions”
… – - – …
Kent and Jo Hovind are INNOCENT!!! The FRAUD continues.
JohnLake
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 1:04pm:NOT WHY, BUT HOW…
Many here have questioned (and many have given reasons) for WHY Kent & Jo did what they did, and WHY it landed Kent in jail for 10 years. WHY is a good question ( my 3 yo definitely seems to think so! ), and I’m sure the debate could go on and on…
But now, there is a very good article on Jen’s Gems website that offers an explanation of HOW the Hovinds got into this position. You can read her post here; http://jensgems.blogspot.com/2007/02/kent-hovind-avoid-all-appearances-of.html
Jen’s Gems is not an anti-Hovind website. She seems to be a genuine supporter of Hovind’s work and even had a conversation with Jo after the sentencing.
It should be noted that frequent CSEBlogs poster, darling, appears to be one of the factors that lead Jen to do her own research into the subject. darling, if you are still checking these posts, Thank you.
Jen also wrote an account of Kent’s sentencing proceedings that she and her home-schooled children attended back in January. bbitmaster posted a link to the article on Jan 23rd in the CSEBlogs./
If Paul decides to edit out the links in this post, you can find Jen’s Gems Blogspot site by using Google.
Regards,
JohnLake
[EDITOR'S NOTE - Yes, on Jan. 19th in the courtroom, the judge did mention Glen Stoll's name and their association repeatedly while rendering the harsh sentence to Dr. Hovind. The "jensgems" blog referenced above discusses Mr. Glen Stoll. (ed. note by paul abramson) ]
spartanrider
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 1:49pm:Hope springs eternal.You say you have multiple grounds to appeal your trial.You cannot appeal the juries finding of fact.That leaves only procedural grounds and the judges instruction to the jury.If your lawyer agreed to the jury instructions that would leave that out.That would leave procedural grounds.If your lawyer objected to something during the trial and was overuled by the judge each of those objections would be a possible grounds for appeal.If you don’t object during the trial you can’t bring something up later. You could also possibly argue ineffective counsel.This case was not that complicated.If a prosecutor or a judge screwed this up they shouldn’t hold office. If you should by some miracle get the case overturned you could get a new trial with the same result or possibly even a longer sentence. Or conversely they could offer you a plea bargain. I am sure that they offered you a plea bargain before your original trial and you turned it down. In hindsight that probably wasn’t a good idea. If your idea of an appeal is having that arch-idiot Springer ghost write idiotic tax protester appeals then the courts are probably going to fine you even more money.I know you are an anti-intellectual but you might want to look for a good tax attorney among god’s chosen people.I hear they are pretty smart. They are also pretty forgiving. In this case you have made a mountain out of a mole hill. Stubborness and pride has brought you to this, along with a big heaping of paranoia.
GORGE
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 1:50pm:Hi Samphire
You put alot of time and effort into your blogs.With alot of reserch
Would you consider yourself to be a good person.
have you ever told a lie?
have you ever stolen anything?
Have you kept the first commandment?
-To put God first in your life.Have you loved God with all your heart,soul,mind and strength?
Samphire,Gods word says that no one seeks after God.None of us here have kept the first Commandment.Scripture warns us,as you know from your rev. reading,that all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.We all have been guilty of breaking all the laws if not by letter def by the spirit.
You may be seeking,or mocking or you might just be sincerly tring to convert us christians or something else I dont know your heart.
But smart alexS are not smart atalL,it will get them into hell for eternity
GORGE
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 3:40pm:Hi Samphire
If pilgrims progress is anything to go by and as far as I know from history books John Bunyan lived his life carefuly according to the word of God.It was his plum line.
With his belifs shaped by the word of God.He would of known that anyone not following the way of salvation in Gods book would be dammed.
The result of him being seperated from his family is only reflecting his Lord as the sword peiced marys heart(not literal sword)as Jesus died on the cross.He was never seperated from his heavenly father.
Those who wish to live a Godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persicution.
He was a man of great faithfulness,love and showed perceverance under trial,and now has a uncorruptble crown of life.
The judges and rulers who put him away in prison will have their family with them on earth and would of provided for them,but nobody knows their next breath and Gods wrath was upon them(for breaking His law) and if unrepentant are from then till present till eternety seperated from any pleasure.j.b. knew his God and trusted him like million today that in all things with him and his family God’s grace was surficiant.
Remember the happy and the sad man near start of p.progress
who was the fully paid member of the difficult squad in the long run?
LTCJeffWhite
Said this on February 7th, 2007 at 10:36pm:Dear Eric, Kent, and Jo,
Thank God for you, and for the ministry which has changed so many lives, and helped so many people, including me, and my wife and three children! We are so happy to have been touched by the Hovind family, and wish we knew you better. Someday!
Several unrelated points:
What is to be thought of a government which releases a premeditator of murder to travel across the country – this Captain Nowak of NASA; but which would jail a man for daring to take seriously the provisions of obscure, perhaps unknowable tax laws – one who, at worst, was poorly advised by professionals? I think there are overtones of persecution based on religion here – and as perpetrated by a variety of people – some not knowing what they are doing.
>
I am so glad you have not taken the advice of Mr. McGurk above – and that you have not deleted this thread. What a tragedy that would have been! I see McGurk’s as one of the ugliest attacks I have seen in this whole sad mess. In my opinion, it is evil to suggest such a thing, and to use such sweet intimidation, under the guise of friendship! Wow. I console myself in the thought that he can’t have any idea of how evil that was.
I hope that Dr. Hovind, nor Kent will break the well-established policy of refusing fruitless online debates over the “Hovind Theory” or anything else. There is work to be done, and much time which might be wasted in such bimblings.
The intimidation of this “delete this thread” sort is repeated in the line of thinking where considering a lawsuit against someone for “breaking the law” is making a “threat.” This is more evil than can be expressed in my simple words. I listened online to the eavesdropped phone conversations, and was very impressed with the discipline and high tone of the conversations, from a man in a seemingly desperate situation. There are no words to express the error of calling anything in those tapes a “threat.” And so, I will express it by passing this story along to every Christian I know, in Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, etc.
Jo Hovind will face her own sentence, and the judge will be accountable for his decision. Anyone can see that she is a loyal and trusting wife – one who has had many questions, and who has always wanted not only to follow the law, but also to avoid making enemies in government. She has posted nothing here which I can see. To suggest that some judge would be so vindictive and stupid as to punish her for the words of her husband, or of anyone else stretches cedulity. What sort of moron would such a judge have to be? How little concern would he have for his own seat on the bench, or at the bar?
Any court which commits grave offenses against the people, and against liberty, order, and justice faces remedies including impeachment, and removal from office of every official involved in the satire. All are well-advised to consider the power and the indignance of people not easily stirred to action, but who, when stirred, can be quite stern in THEIR judgements, and findings, and (always legal) remedies.
God bless this fine family, and may God save the United States!
Jeff White
These opinions do not reflect the policy of the United States Army, or of the Department of Defense, but are wholly the opinions of the author.
ibelieve2
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 12:36am:I would really like to write Kent in prison. I know he must want to hear from people who support him. Is there any way we can get his address? The Lord has blessed Kent with wisdom & I would like to bless him with support. I know it has to be lonely & difficlut in such a place & I, as well as friends of mine, would love to write him & let him know we are STILL behind him. Maybe they let you email prisoners now…I don’t know? Maybe they have a limit on how much mail they get too? If so that is fine, I just wanted to help him as he has so blessed our family. If you dont want to post the address on the blog you can send it to my email…if he can recieve mail. Thank You!
[EDITOR'S NOTE - Many folks would like to write to him. Note that he probably cannot write back, but he is getting letters (after opened in front of guards). Send no packages, CDs, DVDs, or any other enclosures, of course. He is supposed to be moved to a Federal Prison soon, as sentencing has been completed. Temporarily, he is still in Florida's Escambia County Jail, http://www.escambiaso.com/detention.htm (see: "Inmate Lookup"). (ed. note by P.A.) ]
vonnie
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 1:25am:dear hovinds,
i can not even begin to tell you how sad i am that you and your family are having to live through all of this all i can say in comfort to you is that we are praying for you.(my family and i).i can not thank you enough for what you have done for our walk in christ or how easy you have made it for me to witness to others , about Jesus , because of your no nonsense approach to evolution.it did so much harm to so many of us . you have made it very easy to have the answers right out of the bible and to feel confident that everything is right there for us to study and to show to others.you also have made start to delve into other studys and thirst for more. i have also done a study on the different bible versions from listening to your cd’s and you will be happy to know that my whole family(friends included) is now reading the king james and nothing else. thankyou and i will pray for gods will in your life and thankyou for bringing me closer to jesus.
your friend, vonnie
Jason
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 6:02am:Dear Samphire & Darling
I am sorry if it upsets you that my evolutionist friend with a PHD in Micro Biology is tripped up and caused to contradict himself by my unqualified 15 year old daughter.
He is well loved by my family and my daughter felt slightly embarrassed for him saying (afterwards) “I didn’t mean to, I was only asking questions”.
I myself was just forwarding this observation only to give some encouragement to Dr Kent Hovind, as my children do this sort of thing all the time.
My children just ask questions, I’m sorry if inquisitive minds seeking to learn cause you anxiety, but that’s life & the history of science is littered with such minds.
Jason x
PS
I used to believe in evolution just like you and mock others who didn’t believe just like you.
Your issues are nothing new.
Jason
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 6:19am:Hi Ken
Following Your Observation,
“My children leave their teachers at school without good answers for their religious faith (evolution).”
My kids do the same thing even my 9 year old daughter in elementary school tells her teachers that she believes the Bible account, my 11 ear old son in middle school challenges his friends and his teachers. My high school daughter, 17, challenges her teachers in many topics from a Biblical point, not just evolution.
It sounds like your children have inquisitive minds seeking to learn too, doesn’t it fill you full of joy to be a
DAD 
Love Jason x
Frank Unger
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 7:51am:Dr. Hovind,
Your ex-supporters do not universally approve of your futile tax protest efforts.
The government is not persecuting you for religious reasons. No government on earth can tolerate tax protest. I’m sure that 99.9% of those who still support you would not dream of cheating on their taxes, as that violates the teachings of Jesus Christ.
The notion that you “took back” your personal freedom from an oppressive government that no longer has jurisdiction over your “person” is absurd in the extreme. Do you still support the misguided and fraudulent tax advice that was extended to you and your ministry?
You have squandered your talents and a previously effective Creation Ministry for the wrong reasons. I don’t blame the more mainstream Ministries such as “Answers in Genesis” for distancing themselves from you.
You have done for Creation Science what Ted Haggard and Jim Baker did for Evangelism.
Frank Unger – Seattle, Washington, USA
darling
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 10:42am:JohnLake said this at 1:04pm. Feb7:
It should be noted that frequent CSEBlogs poster, darling, appears to be one of the factors that lead Jen to do her own research into the subject. darling, if you are still checking these posts, Thank you.
You are welcome, but the credit is all hers, not mine.
Jason said this at 6:02am, Feb8:
“I am sorry if it upsets you that my evolutionist friend with a PHD in Micro Biology is tripped up and caused to contradict himself by my unqualified 15 year old daughter.”
I think you missed my point completely – it doesn’t upset me at all.
Of course a microbiologist isn’t necessarily going to know the details of the big bang – it’s a completely different field!
Again, I expect your friend knows as little about cosmology as a lawyer would know about open-heart surgery.
warocuya
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 11:33am:Frank Unger,
As an American Indian, I can attest that the governement is awesome. They love us Indians.
Why, we misunderstood the whole kill the Indians take their land thing.
Jesus would have done the same thing right?
If I were you, I would not equate governement with Christianity.
P.S. ANSWERS IN GENESIS… check out their own inner struggles. AIG has split because they can’t agree. Do some research.
Warocuya, Native American
Samphire
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 12:08pm:Hi Gary,
KH is not in jail because of his religion but because of his obduracy. He stated that he is not a tax protestor ~ “Show me the law and I will pay the tax” is effectively what he said. The IRS pursued KH as a tax dodger just as they pursued Madalyn Murray O’Hair and not because of their contrary beliefs.
There is no point in us squabbling over Ken’s 9 year-old responses to her teacher without us knowing what was said. It is very sad though that Ken’s daughter’s future has already been closed at such a tender young age to such main stream science as cosmology, geology, paleontology, etc, by her upbringing, perhaps a greater crime than mere tax evasion. Just as the vicious third and fourth century Christian destruction of 1500 years of acquired knowledge led to the 1,000 years of the Dark Ages so the Fundamentalist denial of modern enquiry will lead to who knows what catastrophy if allowed to gain ascendancy.
Perhaps my response to Ken was overly facetious but the ToE is an extremely complex theory which is touched on only tangentially in senior school let alone in junior school. A junior school teacher is unlikely to have the depth of knowledge of someone higher up the educational food-chain. By way of a very simple example for you, Gary, what do the interior angles of a triangle add up to?
When you wrote “Origin of Life” I assume that you meant “History of Life”; there is a big difference as Ken’s 9 year-old could tell you
. I, too, was looking at my son’s biology book the other day. (Biological Science by Green, Stout and Taylor ISDN 0-521-38380-3). At 972 pages it was slightly thinner than your sister-in-law’s. (I don’t understand the US grading system – my son’s book was suitable for 17-18 year olds). I was very impressed by the quality of the book – orders of magnitude better than any we had at school but a reflection of how much more we have learned of the subject in the last 50 years or so. Evolution was not discussed until page 859 and the first full five pages were given over to a balanced description of the five major theories for the origin of life. Special creation was given half a page and ended as follows “Science concerns itself only with observable phenomena and as such will never be able to prove or disprove special creation”. That, I think, is a fairly comprehensive summary of the position of the teaching of special creation in a science class. As for the ToE the book states “There are no laws of evolution, only well-corroborated hypotheses which collectively add together to form a well-attested theory”. Again, a very competent description which cannot be described, as KH is wont to do, as “dumb” or “a lie”.
Now, when it comes to genuine lies (i.e. the deliberate distortion or misrepresentation of known facts) would you like to discuss the origins of the Christian church?
Kind regards
Samphire
Samphire
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 12:15pm:Hi, Gorge
You wrote: “Those who wish to live a Godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persicution.”
I know a lot of faithful Christians and none of them suffer persecution so your argument is falsified. The US is an overwhelmingly Christian nation – although doubtless you disagree with most of your fellow Christians individual beliefs – but I don’t see much persecution around the place.
The entire history of Christianity is one of dissension and the majority of persecution came from fellow Christians. Bunyan was a dissenter and put in prison by the Christian law. You have to understand the historical perspective of the time to understand why that particular law was in place. Perhaps JB did not have that understanding. In the end it was some of those against whom he had vehemently preached who sought and obtained his release. As I said in an earlier post, left to his own devices he would most likely have been hanged for to refuse to be transported was a capital offence without “benefit of clergy”. He was fortunate in his friends, even those who held differing views to his.
It was the Catholic King who tried to introduce greater religious tolerance but it was the Protestant Church who obstructed it. JB was a protestant who became a victim of the intolerance of his own side and his obstinate trust in his own beliefs.
Samphire
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 12:21pm:Hi, Jason,
I am not criticising your children for asking questions; it is very good that they do so otherwise how would they learn? However, it is your response to your friend’s confusion that I objected to. As I remarked in an earlier post, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has nothing to do with the Big Bang so perhaps more than one of you misunderstood what was being talked about. After all, you said that your friend’s PhD was in micro-biology. Had it been in physics or cosmology then you might have had reasonable cause for complaint.
I find it ironic how fundamentalists have this knee-jerk and untutored criticism of the ToE being in conflict with the 2nd law of Thermodynamics and yet are unable to answer when asked if they believe in the literal truth of Matthew 27: 51-53, an event which, had it truly happened, must have been the most serious violation of the 2nd Law which has ever occurred and yet which went completely unreported by Luke, Mark, John, Peter or Paul.
In short, proving my hypothesis wrong does not prove yours right – and vice versa.
Kind regards
Samphire
FuManchu
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 1:30pm:Jason,
I congratulate your daughter on her interrogative ability. However, I believe the point that several people have been attempting to make is that your educated friend was unable to answer coherently on the subject of Thermodynamics because his PhD is in Microbiology. It’s actually quite hard to think of two subjects more distant from each other – Theology and Computing, perhaps. My specialisation is in Latin – I’m sure your daughter could have made me stumble if she’d questioned me on Sanskrit.
You appear to have fallen – unsurprisingly, I suppose – for Kent Hovind’s ‘Six Types of Evolution’ argument, whereby he lists six largely unrelated phenomena, starting with the creation of the universe, of which only two are anything to do with Biology at all. I suspect that your friend might not have been so hard-pressed had your daughter questioned him on, for example, the actual Theory of Evolution.
All I can suggest is that you attempt to acquire friends with PhDs in Physics and Chemistry before subjecting your guests to further interrogations.
Pete Hall 1
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 2:38pm:I Hope someone from CSE reads this. I don’t know if anyone has thought of this already, and I don’t really understand the politics over there; but couldn’t CSE do an online petition for Kent’s release? Maybe if you get enough support, you could send the petition to your president and he could pull a few strings to get a pardon. Might be worth it, Bush could do with pulling some extra votes in somehow.
Message for Frank Unger….. If you are a Christian, which I presume is what you profess, then you must know that we can use our tongues to bless or to curse, and that words are powerful.
I prefer to use mine to build up, and so I hereby would like to say that it is a praiseworthy thing that Kent Hovind has done with his ministry, and it is impossible to deny his pure motives. There is a higher law than that of government.
I would also like to encourage you by letting you know I am starting my own creation ministry here in the UK, using the CSE slides, it is desperately needed over here. Thanks for all your hard work.
God Bless you Kent, Jo, Eric and everyone at CSE
in Christ…………. Pete (UK)
[EDITOR's NOTE: Separate from CSE a few persons have proposed this. One effort that appears to still be active is to write to Bill O'Rielly: http://rodblair.com/2007/01/23/free-kent-hovind-dr-dino-oreilly-factor-letter/ (ed. note by P.A.) ]
Satanica
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 2:49pm:You were an idiot for not mounting your own defense. By noy doing so THEIR SIDE was the only one heard. Did God tell you not to mount a defense? W[EDITED] were you thinking? Well the good news is things may still go your way…8 yrs into your sentence.
Like everything else you “would like to be true”, instead of seeking the advice of persons who know, you seek the advise of people who agree with you.
If anything your examples have served to illustrate that you are decended from a monkey as opposed to being a perfect creation.
Millerfamily6
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 3:56pm:Frank Unger
Said this at 7:51am:
“I’m sure that 99.9% of those who still support you would not dream of cheating on their taxes, as that violates the teachings of Jesus Christ.”
Uhhh, do not we have the right to hold our government accountable, Mr. Unger, and all others here who are pro government tyranny? Is the government not our servant, and not the other way around? I cannot stand the fact that our tax dollars are used to support abortion, unjust wars, gay and lesbian community-based organizations, immunization frauds, etc., etc., ect.(the list would be too long to continue). Do you think the Lord Jesus approves of our turning our eyes and ears away from such blasphemy, and that He would want us to cower under these evil laws, which say we must give our hard earned money to fund Caesar’s ungodliness? I trow not! I would have to say that most men of God in this country are cowards just giving lip service; as I find Dr. Hovind, whom I’ve met briefly and spent time at his home/ministry (DAL), a true man of God, who walks in the Spirit and in truth. It takes great faith and boldness given by the Spirit of God to stand up to tyranny, to not give unto Caesar that which rightfully belongs to the Lord. I see few men in this old world, and in the church of Jesus Christ, who are willing to resist slavery, as we have all fallen under, due to men of God turning a blind eye and not standing up for righteousness. We are only reaping what we’ve sown in this country and judgement has barely begun. Oh, I pray the Lord give us more men of God such as our brother Kent, who will not fear what man can do to him, but to fear the Lord and do His will, standing for righteousness and come against the bully, Goliath (our own government)!
I don’t blame Dr. Hovind at all for standing firm on his convictions and not going against his concience. Actually, Mr. Unger, I find your faultfinding with Dr. Hovind an unwise decision on your part. We know that the Lord has bestowed much wisdom upon our dear brother in the Lord, because our God says Himself, “and he that winneth souls is wise.” You, I’m sure, do not have all of the details regarding Mr. and Mrs. Hovind, so I’d be very careful of judging unrighteously (Matt 7). If you are indeed a brother in the Lord, then it would be a brother’s business to restore a brother who is sinning (not saying that KH is in sin; I don’t believe he is) in all meekness lest a snare come upon your own soul and take you into sin (see Gal 6:1). You would need to reason together and hear his side before you make such a harsh judgement upon this brother, but to which you will probably never get a chance to sit down with him to do, so I’ll let you figure out with the Lord what would be the right thing for you to do:0) As brothers and sisters in Christ, we should not bring reproach upon one another in a haughty spirit, but speak to one another in love, seeking the best for our brethren in Christ Jesus. So, with all that said, I’d sure be able to trust Kent Hovind even though he sits in jail, before I could trust you just by what you’ve written. Your words do not show the love of Christ.
For those professing to be Christians that are posting harsh words/judgement against our brother Kent, your works are lacking, as it is not done in love for a fellow Christian. According to God’s word you should be seeking to help a brother in any way and seeking his best. If you were trying to rebuke a brother for sin, Galatians 6:1 says Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Now, you can’t say you weren’t warned:0) I guess we could deduct there’s a lack of spirituality, here, or perhaps your reasons for such harsh words and judgement are something you should examine in your heart before the Lord and see if your motives be pure.
Millerfamily6
voiceofreason
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 4:59pm:Dear JR Turner,
Your lack of knowledge regarding economic and financial matters is typical of a tax protestor. Inflation is an economic phenomenon which effects the price of goods. The actual yearly inflation is 3% per year, not the 5% the author stated.
Many factors cause inflation and exactly which ones is still a topic of debate. Inflation is a by product of a free market economy, and not a tax which is pocketed by the government. To even put forth that idea shows a complete ignorance about what inflation is and a lack of even an elementary understanding of economics.
I pasted a portion of wikipedia’s definition of inflation and I also pasted the link to their entire discussion of inflation. Before you post comments about something you know little about you might want to do a little research on the topic. It will help you save face on this blog.
“A great deal of economic literature concerns the question of what causes inflation and what effect it has. A small amount of inflation is often viewed as having a positive effect on the economy. One reason for this is that it is difficult to renegotiate some prices, and particularly wages, downwards, so that with generally increasing prices it is easier for relative prices to adjust. Many prices are “sticky downward” and tend to creep upward, so that efforts to attain a zero inflation rate (a constant price level) punish other sectors with falling prices, profits, and employment. Efforts to attain complete price stability can also lead to deflation, which is generally viewed as a negative outcome because of the significant downward adjustments in wages and output that are associated with it.
Inflation is also viewed as a hidden risk pressure that provides an incentive for those with savings to invest them, rather than have the purchasing power of those savings erode through inflation. In investing inflation risks often cause investors to take on more systematic risk, in order to gain returns that will stay ahead of expected inflation. Inflation is also used as an index for cost of living adjustments and as a peg for some bonds. In effect, inflation is the rate at which previous economic transactions are discounted economically.
Inflation also gives central banks room to maneuver, since their primary tool for controlling the money supply and velocity of money is by setting the lowest interest rate in an economy – the discount rate at which banks can borrow from the central bank. Since borrowing at negative interest is generally ineffective, a positive inflation rate gives central bankers “ammunition”, as it is sometimes called, to stimulate the economy”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation
Sincerely,
VoiceofReason
Ken
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 7:07pm:Hi again Jason,
“It sounds like your children have inquisitive minds seeking to learn too, doesn’t it fill you full of joy to be a DAD ”
I have learned more about God the father throuhg my own fathering being a dad. When the Bible says “children are a gift from the Lord” it’s no joke! And I am blessed even more seeing my prayers for them answered with great godly character in them. I am glad they question and seek truth no matter what the topic or subject.
Proverbs; “Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it”
Peace my brother.
Ken
mogonite
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 8:06pm:I can see how Kent would be predisposed towards accepting an outer from authority such as Glen Stoll advocates, given his stance on the corruption of the government, NWO, tax-funded schooling etc. Nevertheless, I don’t know whether Kent was completely aware of all facets of the weakness he was opening up, a weakness that quite conveniently led to his indictment and a 10 year sentence.
The effectiveness of his ministry for the Lord is unquestionable, and the facts of creationism remain the same, regardless of Kent’s less than perfect record. Just as the facts of evangelism remain the same, regardless of the imperfections in the proclaimers. And all this is for the glory of God, that he would use imperfect, broken vessels to reveal his plan, much to the dissappointment of the evil one.
I would theorise, not knowing anything more than what I have read (and much of it biased at that) that either Kent is a fruad and a lunatic, or he was onto something that caught the attention of some powerful people who looked for an opportunity to destroy what he was doing. Having seen his seminars, I believe the guy is legitimately trying to serve the Lord and lead people to Christ.
Dr. Kalapp
Said this on February 8th, 2007 at 8:21pm:Dr. Hovind,
I personally want to thank you very much for helping me and my family deepen our faith. We have thouroughly enjoyed your videos. I was telling a friend about the videos and he was very interested. So I went right home and brought the first session and watched it together. He liked it so much that he asked if he could use them to teach this to his highschool sunday school class. So I am currently in the process of sharing this truth with people outside of the “baptist” circle. I do believe that this man is a Christian, but even he said that his students need to learn this. I truly am praying that God will open the eyes of the judges to rule on your appeal and they will see how the previous judgement was obtained illegally. It is a sad day when our court system does not have to follow it’s own laws. Keep your chin up, and when you get out on appeal, I hope you will consider coming to our area and teaching us in person. I look forward to meeting you.
Sincerely,
Dr. Kalapp
Samphire
Said this on February 9th, 2007 at 4:48am:awright33 said this “Oh, Samphire is from Europe, that figures. All of his posts make sense now. Europe is one of the most Godless areas in the world and it shows.”
Your argument, awright, is rather simplistic but then, of course, you are American. These ‘ad hominems’ really progress the discussion, don’t they?
Actually, much of my belief has been heavily influenced by American writers, not least Thomas Jefferson.
Kind regards
Samphire
LEEK
Said this on February 9th, 2007 at 7:18am:Dear Dr Hovind,
Our prayers are with you, you are being usewd by God in a completely different ministry, it’s sad to think that non believers will go to such lengths to try to stop you from doing Gods work..Well, they have been fooled, because when you work for God, you can work anywhere.. I just wanted you to know that your ministry has changed our lives, my husband, Philip’s life changed drastically after watching your dvd’s on CREATION and evolution.It’s wonderful to see how close God working in his life and also in the lives of our children. My son who is 12 years old says his prayers every evening and never forgets to pray for you and your wife. You have touched all our lives, what a magnificent blessing you have given us… I pray that when your work for God is done there, you will come to South Africa … We would like to extend an open invitation to our home..You can reach my husband(Philip) on e-mail or myself(Lee) on e-mail ….
Always remember that God brings you to a situation and He will bring you out of it… May His presence always be with you and may He continue to keep you safe and to watch over you and your family, may His grace and His mercy always surround and may He bles you continuously , so that you may continue to bless others…
Our prayer from Sunwich Port in South Africa are always with you.
Philip and Lee
McGurk
Said this on February 9th, 2007 at 8:30am:LTCJeffWhite,
Please go back and read my previous post. I do not see anything in it that can be construed in any way as a “threat”. I am a creationist, and I believe in a literal interpretation of the Scriptures. My point is, there is nothing to be gained in posting things BEFORE MRS. HOVIND’s SENTENCING that might be considered inflammatory to Mrs. Hovind’s judge. My post was not a vast conspiracy to promote the theory of evolution or to silence the Hovinds. On the contrary, it seems like common sense not to post things that anyone in the world can read that might be hurtful to Mrs. Hovind’s case.
I do not agree with Kent Hovind’s stance on taxes. But, I hate to see his wife end up in prison.
Sorry for caring about that, and for expressing an opinion….
Dr. Kalapp
Said this on February 9th, 2007 at 10:46am:Mr. Frank Unger,
I find it amazing that you will lash out and judge Dr. Hovind for his thoughts and beliefs. Especially using that Bible and Jesus Christ as your source of argument. I know that the Bible teaches us to obey the authorities over us, but it also teaches to judge not, lest ye be judged. You do not have to agree with Mr. Hovind, but you also do not have to lecture and judge him as well. If you truly think he is wrong, then why don’t you do something else the Bible teaches us to do and that is PRAY for him. If you think he is wrong, then PRAY that God will open his eyes, but do not sit back from the comfort of your home and criticize a man in jail. Why don’t you be a true Christian and pray for Dr. Hovind. Whether we agree with his political views or not, he still had a great ministry and he was still doing a great work for God. This verdict does not change who he is or what he was doing. We should be praying that he will get out soon and be able to return to the pulpit and continue reaching many people who are blinded to the gospel by evolution. I pray that not only you but all “Cristians” will begin to pray, as a Christian should, and stop spilling your guts and venom. You are not only hurting Dr. Hovind but you are also hurting the cause of Christ.
Dr. Kalapp
dawn
Said this on February 9th, 2007 at 2:48pm:Kent, I don’t believe you to be an evil man, but I’m praying for you to see the error of your ways. Please, please, please, swallow your pride, admit to your sin and repent. You may not have set out to fall into sin, but you did end up in sin. I am anxiously awaiting to hear your side of the story and all the allegations against you (e.g., where you got the idea that taxes are voluntary, assault, etc.). I agree with you that our government is out of control in the arena of taxation (and most other arenas), but loopholing (via the Glen Stoll theory) is NOT the way to go to fight governmental injustices.
Praying that the Lord has mercy and that you will have LEARNED the lesson the Lord is trying to show you. I believe you do have a heart for the lost and for the Lord. The difference between you, Paul, Peter, etc. being thrown in prison is a vast difference. They were put in jail for preaching the gospel, not for evading their taxes. I’m glad to see that you have a great attitude and that you are reaching those around you with the gospel message.
God Bless,
Dawn
YoCuzwaasup
Said this on February 9th, 2007 at 3:14pm:Dr. Hovend
How are you?
I know sitting at a place that you never thought you would be can be very … confusing,
The thought’s, which can run though ones mind. One thought is, “How did I end up here”? The other may be, “I don’t want to think more highly than I ought, Christ died for all men”. It can be over whelming.
Don’t mind the mindless chatter of some that would attack you. As the Word says, “Jesus is a name to be spoken against”. So … prophecy came true. I guess though, the most painful is when it comes through your own family, (and I mean your “Church” family. I’m not going to accuse those who have not done their own homework, as I have before casting my stone’s. If scripture is also correct in this manner, the father of lies is having a field day with your name, and since you belong to Jesus, with Jesus also. I don’t want to be in the shoes of one who just follows the, “Church crowd”.
“Many in that day” … That Scripture still scares me, because both groups were doing good things, but Jesus said to the one group, “I never KNEW YOU”.
WOW, too think you know God, but in the end burn? My daily request would be that pride would not creep into my heart, and I would never forget where I came from. Meaning I needed JESUS just as much as the next guy!
Dr. Hovend, I do believe the time is short, trust is a fleeting word. The only one trustworthy is God, but so much of the world has crept into the church, that Jesus needs to one more time take a cat of nine tails and straighten us out. Yes it would be less painful if we just read His word and self-discipline ourselves, but were creatures of habit and we forget. Oh, that the love of God would help us not to forget.
Remember, this time on earth, “GODS GOOD EARTH” is short, and He does see every thing that goes on. He remembers your suffering for Him. With great battles, COMES great victory! And even better, great rewards!!! Not so much here would I like my reward, I want it in a place that sin is not present, so I can enjoy it truly with the giver. I want to cry tears of appreciation to the MY/true HERO, “JESUS”!
Dr. Hovend, those who have foolish things to say, as the Scripture says, “The preaching of the Cross is foolishness to them that perish”. I didn’t say it and you didn’t say it, it is the Bible. For those who claim to believe in Jesus, but do not support your fellow brother in jail, (AN American JAIL), open your mouth. Pray and write about this side show, which goes against what interpretation of our founding Father’s. The Constitution, and what they (this generation) want it to mean. Yes, the scriptures say, as believers we are to render to Caesar, but render what? The Constitution freed the church. The State does not follow there own law, and that’s what one of II Timothy 3:3 among other things) says how to recognize the Signs (Like a map to know the right direction) of the last days.
Some people want to go to hell. HOW STUPID!!! To reject the very one, the only One who can give you what your really looking for, for free. I guess there is a time for everything, and just like in Job, God and the devil, still make wagers. Well, God doesn’t. It’s just to show the devil how much more capable we are in loving Him then His most cherished creation was. Is it a game? I think so when I really think about it. Is it fair? Well, it’s not my world, I didn’t create it, and I didn’t make the rules. BUT … I know who did! And it is only by His grace that I am smart enough to know who’s side I should be on. The WINNERS.
Kent, those who think there doing God a service. Those who are not the devil but are working for him … I pray for them. Just like God needed a Judas, and a Nero, and a Hitler, these enemies of the Cross, are truly enemies to themselves. Followers in leadership positions. They to like the devil will bow down and confess that Jesus is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father. I just wish “Now” would be the time cause then, (and for a lot of people), will be too late.
Keep the Faith
Anthony
PS. I have no stones to throw.
I’m as much a sinner as the next man. Thank God for Jesus.
GORGE
Said this on February 9th, 2007 at 7:57pm:Frank Unger
I understand what you are saying but the christian way I feel now is to wait for Kent when he is able to give his side of this.Only then can we rightly take into account all possibilaties and decern in love and obedience to the scriptures what to do,to do the whole thing biblicaly.If Dr hovind does not say anything on the matter-then yes that can speak volumes.I am going to be patient knowing He should be afforded this.Remember-treat each other as you yourselve would wish to be treated.
Best thing to do for now is pray for Gods will and justice to provail
njream
Said this on February 9th, 2007 at 8:43pm:right on man. hang in there. my wife and i have been following your minisry for a few years. we love it and we have shown your tapes to dozens of people. we were devistated to here about this. Thank you so much for sticking up for what is right and not compromising. you have been such a great example to my wife and I. I’m so thankful that have been exposed to your minstry it has really helped me in so many ways. my wife and i will continue to pray for you and support and spread cse. let us know if you need anything in nc.
Jananne
Said this on February 9th, 2007 at 8:44pm:Hello Dr. Kent Hovind and Family,
We are still praying for ya’ll and an appeal for Dr. Kent. We believe the Lord will work in Mrs. Hovind’s sentencing. We are soo glad to hear of all the men being saved and the wonderful ministry Dr. Kent has started in the prisons!! Through this whole situation of yours, many people have become aware of what is really going on in our churches and country today. Though many people seem to be against ya’ll, the LORD is on your side! Praying for you,
The Dave Whalen Family
thedavewhalenfamily.bravehost.com
chris_687
Said this on February 10th, 2007 at 1:07am:Salutations Dr. Hovind,
First I would like to let you know that you have been a great inspiration to me, more than I can remember ever before. I am sorry to read some of the disheartening responces you get from some. When I read of people making such critisms as some do, it makes me sad, because they do not understand that we believers are members of One Body. Christ.
P.S. What most of your crittics may not realize is that there isn’t a law requiring us to pay this tax, yet because most of us, and myself included, pay it only to keep the “wolfs” at bay. There is sooo much more to this, and most people are ignorant of such things. I pray that -We The People- will wake up to this soon. If there is a law, why won’t they show it to the People?
P.P.S. Keep up the Good fight Teacher.
CreationCD
Said this on February 10th, 2007 at 2:22am:Darling, said this at 8:03am Feb 07
“I don’t have a problem with the idea that the first spark of life originated from a supernatural source, but that is abiogenesis – which doesn’t impact the concept of evolution.”
One argument I often hear evolutionists use in Dr. Hovind’s debates is Occum’s razor. “All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one.” THEIR argument being that if evolution could work and all things could arise naturally (no matter how remote the chance), why do we need God to do it.
However, if you don’t have a problem with a supernatural source which has the power to create the universe, why would He wait for eternity for a chance quantum fluctuation of 10^??? virtual particles to appear and create the universe and then wade through trillions of star systems which formed randomly over billions of years looking for one in which life could start and then give it a nudge?
If you don’t have a problem with a supernatural source that could create life, then why would He wait for billion of years for random chance errors to improve the program He wrote?
I think this is why most evolutionist are not willing to “let a divine foot in the door,” The odds of a universe happening where life could exist, then the odds that life did form, and then the impossible odds of making all those evolutionary leaps in so little time, are just too small. If you allow for the existence of a supernatural force in any of these steps then it’s much more likely that this force acted again in the other steps than to make up another just so story with a chance of one in 10^100 of happening.
There are some highly educated people who have become Christians after looking into the evidence.
But our education system spends so much time bashing the Bible and Christians that if anyone does begin to realize that there must be supernatural force they usually won’t look to the Biblical God. Many comments on this site show that educated attitude, that it’s almost a mark of a higher education to mock the Bible. But “higher criticism” is reserved for attacks only on Judeo-Christian beliefs. At the high schools in our town, the Muslims get to come in once a year and help the students understand Islam. (Christian churches can’t get in because the schools already know how to teach about the Christian religion.) Teachers who tell their students that the Bible has been proven false, stand in silent apparent agreement as the Muslims present there religious beliefs. One year the newspaper even ran the names of kids who had converted to Islam.
** Samphire, ** if you’d like to chime in. Have you written much in debate against the Islamic religion in England. I’m not asking if you’ve researched it, but if you’ve taken a stand against any of their beliefs or doctrines. If England passes a law making it illegal to say anything against Islam, will you continue to debate against Christian beliefs and allow students to be indoctrinated into Islamic beliefs. Since you wish to debate creation / evolution and explore the dialectic of Christian beliefs verses the Scientific Dogma, (I assume from a standpoint of trying to educate people), if such a law existed would you risk your freedom to debate Muslim beliefs if the majority of English children were learning these doctrines at school.
P.S. Thank you for the information on John Bunyan, I haven’t had a chance to read Grace Abounding yet, but I’m looking forward to it. While it was parliament that had Bunyan imprisoned, could Charles II have pardoned or released him? Was he compelled to enforce the law like King Darius in Daniel, or was it political, or was Bunyan just not important enough to be worth noticing at the time? And of course I would like your reasons why Dr. Hovind’s case is not remotely similar to John Bunyan’s.
jtlbb2
Said this on February 10th, 2007 at 10:06am:Frank Unger,
I’m pretty sure Hovind realizes that a lot of people disagree with him and that includes people who have supported him in the past. There’s not need to point out what is already obvious. However, I believe in Hovind’s point-of-view, he doesn’t believe he has broken any laws. From what I understand, he has asked the judge several times to name the law which he was being accused of being broken, and he never received an answer. That probably reinforced his beliefs that he is in the right. And if he truly believes he is in the right, then I can’t blame him for being the way he is. I mean, if you were sure that you were right about something, shouldn’t you stand up for it, regardless of the persecution that comes? I think so, though most wouldn’t because most people cower to authority. And I’m not saying I agree with Hovind, because I don’t, but I am saying that you gotta see the situation from his view-point.
As for other creationist ministries like AiG distancing themselves from him, Hovind’s views on taxes might be one of the reasons. But I think 99.9% of the reason AiG distances themselves from Hovind is because he a lot of material that is questionable and/or has been discredited. To name a few examples: claiming the New Zealand monster may have been a dead plesiosaur, canopy theory, moon dust thickness, etc. To make matters worse, when Hovind has been confronted by these, he seems unwilling to change his opinion or even address the issues at the very least.
For example, Hovind always says that the New Zealand “plesiosaur’s” protein is only 96% similiar to a basking shark’s and that no one had ever seen plesiosaur protein to know what it is supposed to look like. This is true, but as AiG has pointed out, we don’t need to know what plesiosaur protein looked like to know this creature was not a plesiosaur. Because we do know what plesiosaur vertebrae looks like. And this unidentified creature’s vertebrae was analyzed and found to be cylindrical vertebrae, which is unlike a reptiles or a mammal’s, but is the same as a shark’s. However, Hovind completely ignores this fact in his seminar, and even when it was pointed out to him by AiG, he still ignored it as if they never even mentioned it. That is what I call, “dumb on purpose”. And just for the record, this creature’s protein being “only” 96% similar to a basking sharks is easily explained by its advanced stage of decay.
If Hovind would at least take the time to seriously answer objections, and not just blindly generalize or completely ignore the issues, then perhaps ministries like AiG would take him more seriously.
African Christian
Said this on February 10th, 2007 at 1:02pm:Hi there prisoner Kent
Just a quick response to let you know even far away in Africa you have Christians checking up on you and your website. Glad to see all is relatively ok with you.
The devil has never played fair and will use every thing he can. How guilty you are, I do not know but you are a living testimony to your fellow Christians to keep our noses clean because the devil is on the prowl. The devil just did not really keep in mind your witness to your fellow inmates. They are a couple of lucky souls.
Just another Christian.
joshrjb
Said this on February 10th, 2007 at 2:40pm:Hi Jason,
You made a lot of good points. I’m surprised people believe in evolution, but I think more than anything it is a person’s alternative to not believing in the one true God of the Holy Bible. Satan has plenty of diversions prepared. My prayer is that people will see the emptiness of evolution. Has it benefited the greater cause of humanity? Does evolution cause a person to love others as much as he loves himself? Do evolutionists band together and promote peace and goodwill toward their fellow man in the name of evolution? I think it actually teaches survival of the fittest, doesn’t it?
I pray that God will raise up more scientists who love the Lord, scientists such as Dr. Robert Gentry. His work on polonium-218 has destroyed the Uniformitarian Principle, proving that not all things can be explained naturally since it remains “Creation’s Tiny Mystery.” Jason, wouldn’t it be cool if your children could pursue creation science as a career?
Josh
Sade Tennyson
Said this on February 10th, 2007 at 4:09pm:Beloved Dr Hovind, Sister Jo, Eric & the family (CSE family inclusive)
Nothing is too hard for the Lord our God to handle..Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
Do not be disheratened. Our God is over all.
I pray that the Lord Almight will grant you all the wisdom from above to walk into the way of escape that the Lord has made provision for in this circumstance in Jesus name.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Sister Jo, do not fear, do not dread, the Almighty God by His divine power will uphold you & raise battallions of his angels to go ahead of you & fight the battle for you – For the battle is the Lords & the Victory is yours in Jesus name.
The whole assempbly gathered against you all shall be as nothing in Jesus name…You shall seek them & not find them for the Lord in His infinite love, power & mercy will take over your case & vindicate you in Jesus mighty name.
Sade Tennyson. London UK.
Annita
Said this on February 10th, 2007 at 6:42pm:Amen, Dr. Kalapp! I couldn’t have said it better myself! See Dr. Kalapp’s remarks about 5 replies up.
Dr. Hovind:
My prayers and thoughts are with you. Just wanted you to know that my church is still showing your creation seminars and no one there is judging you. I first saw your seminars on tape about four years ago and they have taught me so much! I finally have something intelligent to say to my unbelieving friends, co-workers and aquaintences in regards to disputing evolution.
I’ll be going to see Eric speak when he comes to my neck of the woods in March.
Tell your “new flock” that I am praying for them up in Canada. May God’s richest blessings rest upon you.
Annita
ch_soldier3001
Said this on February 10th, 2007 at 7:54pm:Hey, Dr. Hovind,
I sure hope you find this comment amongst the 80 others. I am so saddened by the things that people say about you. I think you’re very brave, and I am so happy that so many men have turned their hearts to Christ while you’re there in prison. Your steadfast faith in God is a lot like the guys in the Bible. Speaking of which, I want to share my memory verse with you. If you have time, you might look at the context, you’d find it encouraging because Paul was abandoned, too.
2 Timothy 4:17
But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that the message might be preached fully through me, and that all the Gentiles might hear. Also I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!
Before he wrote that, he said that everybody forsook him, and he prayed for their forgiveness. I love you, brother, and I promise to pray for you.
Dan from Bellevue
skynebula
Said this on February 10th, 2007 at 9:38pm:Dear Dr. Hovind and family,
Our family continues to pray for you and your family several times daily. I will quote my young son who says, “your ministry has opened my eyes to the truth.” We know you will serve God where ever you are, but we pray you will soon be together as a family, in your home, serving God. Thank you for recording so much of your ministry so we can continue to watch and show others. May God bless you all.
djhouk
Said this on February 10th, 2007 at 9:39pm:GORGE
Said this at 7:57pm:
——————————————————————————–
“I understand what you are saying but the christian way I feel now is to wait for Kent when he is able to give his side of this.Only then can we rightly take into account all possibilaties and decern in love and obedience to the scriptures what to do,to do the whole thing biblicaly.If Dr hovind does not say anything on the matter-then yes that can speak volumes.”
Normally, the defense portion of the trial is when you give your side of the issue. The fact that Kent offered no defense, *none*, does, indeed, speak volumes.
whitakerfulton
Said this on February 11th, 2007 at 9:26am:We can only say, “Thank God for the strength and courage He has given you!” May He continue to lead you, to open up the way and to show you His sovereign will in and for your life on earth. Soon He will take all of us out of this land of sorrow and suffering, and we’ll be “for ever with the Lord.” AMEN! Keep us posted and be assured of our prayers, for you there, as well as for Eric and the ministry team. Yours in Him, another grateful soul in appreciation of the CREATION message, W. W. Fulton
Samphire
Said this on February 11th, 2007 at 1:32pm:Hi, CD,
You said “** Samphire, ** if you’d like to chime in. Have you written much in debate against the Islamic religion in England. I’m not asking if you’ve researched it, but if you’ve taken a stand against any of their beliefs or doctrines. If England passes a law making it illegal to say anything against Islam, will you continue to debate against Christian beliefs and allow students to be indoctrinated into Islamic beliefs. Since you wish to debate creation / evolution and explore the dialectic of Christian beliefs verses the Scientific Dogma, (I assume from a standpoint of trying to educate people), if such a law existed would you risk your freedom to debate Muslim beliefs if the majority of English children were learning these doctrines at school.”
I don’t argue against any spiritual beliefs which do not infringe others’ rights but against the closing of young minds which appears to be a requirement of some fundamentalists’ particularly narrow focus. I cannot imagine the British Parliament passing any law forbidding criticism of Islam so I cannot answer your specific enquiry concerning free speech but, if I continued to stand on my present soapbox, my argument would not be against Islam per se anymore than I argue against Christianity but against any smothering of scientific understanding and discovery such as is seen in Young Earth Creationism. I know of no Islamic preachers, for instance, who tour the world teaching youngsters that dinosaurs of all shapes and sizes were alive in their billions only 5,000 years ago and similar stuff of equal ludicrosity.
I am a great admirer of T.H.Huxley and, contrary to your reference to “Scientific Dogma”, my position is represented in his words of 1855: “our knowledge is the knowledge of our time – that absolute truth is unattainable – that all our theories, however well founded, and however grand, are but myths, which enable us to grasp for awhile that fragment of the incomprehensible universe which has presented itself, – to float thereby on the surface of the great abyss until some larger fragment comes within our reach and the old is deserted for the new.” Scarcely, a dogmatic view.
But talking of dogma, as an aside, what I do find highly objectionable on a human level is how many Christians in these blogs seem happy to consign their fellow believers to the flames over ridiculously silly dogmatic points. Some practitioners of Islam show similar repugnant sectarianism.
As to Islam I have to admit that I know little of the religion. I have visited mosques (leaving my wife at the door where she would quickly disappear off to the bazaars) enjoying their cool, peaceful atmosphere and wonderful Islamic art and being amused to see guys lying flat out on the floors in the heat of the day fast asleep. No women to be seen, of course. But most Muslims are like most Christians – faithful and peaceful adherents to their cultural beliefs and thoroughly nice people, just like us non-believers. However, whereas Christianity thrives throughout the world in democratic societies, democratic societies (with some exceptions) do not thrive in the presence of Islam.
You also wrote “P.S. Thank you for the information on John Bunyan, I haven’t had a chance to read Grace Abounding yet, but I’m looking forward to it. While it was parliament that had Bunyan imprisoned, could Charles II have pardoned or released him? Was he compelled to enforce the law like King Darius in Daniel, or was it political, or was Bunyan just not important enough to be worth noticing at the time? And of course I would like your reasons why Dr. Hovind’s case is not remotely similar to John Bunyan’s.”
Remember Charles 1st? He mislaid his head because he maintained that the King’s Divine Right was superior to the will of the people; the people (probably unlawfully) disagreed. When, after a few years, the English realised that life under the Puritans was not much fun they decided to restore the monarchy and invited Charles Stuart to become King on the understanding that Parliament in the form of the House of Commons would be in charge. So, the answer to your question is that it is my limited understanding that Charles 2nd could not generally issue pardons outside of the law which was made by Parliament. His ability to grant pardons was set out in the Act of Settlement of which I have no specific knowledge. However, in John Bunyan’s case, in April 1661 he could have taken advantage of the Coronation Pardon but he never received one, possibly because he would not apply for one on the basis that he was innocent. Even if Charles could have released John Bunyan, the king would have been aware of the political sensitivities and would have been reluctant to do so. Not only had we recently had a religious civil war but there were also religious pressures causing threats from the Continent. Perhaps other posters have much better information than me on the subject.
Kent Hovind’s case is different to that of John Bunyan’s. Bunyan did not believe that the State had the right to stop him preaching his particular version of “the Word of God”. He believed that he owed his allegiance to a higher authority. In the case of KH – as I have said on many occasions on this blog – Kent does not say that he should not pay taxes. He has stated that he believes that taxes are a necessary and proper obligation but, in the case of payroll tax, he also believed that (following 400 hours of telephone conversations with Glen Stoll) under his particular circumstances he could so manipulate his financial affairs that they would fall outside the taxation regime. Unfortunately, the way the IRS saw it was that his manipulations were both ineffective, dishonest and unlawful. Pending the appeal, I think that the kindest view of the matter is to say that Kent is disingenuous. On the other hand, to have 400 hours of phone calls to a tax-protesting nutcase who claims to live in the Embassy of Heaven does not smack of disingenuousness but machination, something of which one could never accuse John Bunyan.
Kind regards
Samphire
Curious
Said this on February 11th, 2007 at 1:46pm:In response to 10jtlbb2 and others who keep quoting KH’s “What law have I broken?” mantra here is your answer: The 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, sometimes referred to as “the law of the land.” The 16th amendment was passed by Congress on 12 July 1909 and ratified on 3 February 1913.
Also, to those (Millerfamily6 and others) who believe we don’t have to “render under Caesar” because we don’t agree with certain ways that our tax dollars are spent, my question to you is, where is that found in the Bible? Jesus said that we are to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s. We are also commanded to obey those in authority over us. That obedience isn’t voided if we happen to disagree with that authority. We do not have the right to choose which laws we are to obey. If we choose to break the law then we are also choosing to pay the penalties for that choice.
Do you think for a second that Jesus agreed with everything that was going on in his day? He didn’t teach then that his followers had any right to disobey the civil authority at that time, what makes us so presumptuous as to think that we can do so now?
To all those who believe that the Hovinds should be let out of jail because of all the good that they have done, WHERE is that found in the Bible??!! Yes, many have been saved as a direct result of his minitry. He will be rewarded in Heaven one day for that. That in no way excuses him or allows him to get a freebie because of “one mistake.” What’s up with that? That is in direct contradiction to what the Bible teaches in James 2:10, “For whoseover shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” Just as one sin makes us a sinner and in need of a Savior, breaking one law makes us a lawbreaker. Laws and statues on the books determine what the penalties are for breaking different laws. For reasons known (possibly) only to him, KH chose to resist all overtures aimed at getting him to pay taxes. Fine. Now, he has to suffer the consequences of those choices. That does NOT make him a martyr.
Finally, to everyone who feels the need to resort to namecalling and the like when replying to Darling, Samphire and others, do you really think that will change their minds? I seriously doubt it. You can’t force anyone to accept Jesus. Rather than resort to namecalling, why not pray that their search for truth results in them finding The Truth?
Jason
Said this on February 11th, 2007 at 7:57pm:Hi Kent, Ken & Josh
Thank you for your encouragement, Your video’s, Kent, as I keep repeating are excellent, they have equipped my children hugely, I will have to make another set so they can have one each (my eldest daughter complained tonight about the DVD’s disappearing into my youngest daughters bedroom).
I thought I would write a little more about my daughters relationship with my evolutionary friend, as the type of incident I spoke of previously happens from time to time but is not very representative of their relationship.
I wonder how many evolutionists would feel confident to allow someone like you to teach their child science, Kent. My daughter says eat the meat spit out the bones.
My daughter and my friend are very close (friendship wise), he seems to enjoy teaching her and she enjoys learning. They often talk, in depth on scientific subjects, I generally don’t get involved as the level of conversation leaves me behind (although it is a Joy to watch).
I find the relationship between them pleasing, as the depth of learning goes beyond just the science. My friend talks also about the politics and personality of science, how research is funded by people with aims and objectives beyond that of just gaining knowledge. He makes her aware of the vanity of scientists and their eagerness to be seen to be involved in projects which may gain them notoriety. He laughs with her about the bickering and backbiting that goes on at high levels of scientific research.
Having said that, I’m not sure it would be so funny if you were the one left out in the cold because you or your work didn’t conform to the aims & objectives of the ones who hold the purse strings. Have you had similar experiences Kent?
All in all I think the education she receives from him in general is well rounded. They may differ in their religious views, Evolution vs. Creation, but that doesn’t seem to get in the way of their enthusiasm & Joy in science.
Nothing my daughter has learned from him has appeared to alter her faith in God in any way, to the contrary she sees the wonder and glory of God in the things which he sees as being ordinary and matter of fact.
Of course we pray for him, maybe God will open his eyes to the fact that there is a spiritual side to the universe, and he will be set free from this constraining view that the universe can only be understood through naturalistic science.
Again thank you all for your encouragement
With Love
Jason x
nygdan
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 1:25am:“my wife and I were arrested without notice or warning that the IRS thought we were doing something unlawful. We were shocked to say the least”
Jesus Christ Hovind, you’re sitting in jail and STILL lying? Yeesh. Have fun doing that for the next 10 years.
“There is still a great chance the case will be overturned on appeal for multiple reasons, but that is in God’s hands.”
So, if its not overturned, then god doesn’t think you were doing whats right, no? Infact, since you’ve been found guilty and sentenced to jail, god must already have said ‘this man needs to be punished for his lies and sins’.
djhouk
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 1:51am:Does anyone know why KH did not provide a defense case at his trial? He doesn’t strike me as someone unwilling to engage opponents. Did KH’s counsel feel that the prosecution didn’t prove its case and thus a defense was unnecesary? That certainly looks like a poor judgement in hindsight. I’m just struck by the decision, facing a possible 200+ years in prison, that KH would make no attempt to defend himself. I would also think that this would limit his grounds for appeal as well. Does anyone know why?
Samphire
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 3:45am:Hi, WeinerTD,
A nice post – but I think Eric will wisely keep his own counsel until the appeals are out of the way. In his favour, we were told that he is in conversation with the IRS and I am sure that he will wish to conduct himself in future dealings in a way which will not bring him or the ministry into deliberate conflict with the authorities. But he will first have to get the ministry’s assets back from Glen Stoll and that would be better done sooner than later as I doubt that Mr Stoll will be free to enjoy the delights of the Embassy of Heaven for much longer.
I am not sure about Kent though. I got the impression from the tapes that he remains incorrigible. But the lesson of evolution is that time does bring in great changes. Perhaps he may yet see the light.
FuManchu
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 4:07am:Jason,
When you say that the Bible “matches the evidence in the ground amazingly well”, I assume you mean “matches the evidence in the ground amazingly well, apart from the evidence that I’m ignoring because it contradicts the Bible”.
Be that as it may, however, this is probably not the place for a scientific discussion, not least because we all lack the necessary credentials. Which is, in a sense, my point. I don’t pretend to know whether the Big Bang theory is true or not. All I have to go on are the current opinions of experts in that field. The difference between us appears to be that I am content to accept that people who have spent their lives researching and writing about a subject are more likely to understand it than someone who has decided that nothing can possibly trump the testimony of a collection of Mesopotamian myths in their fourth translation.
Regarding the consequences of mistake on the issue: if you’re right, I will, of course, be most unhappy, and at considerable length. If, on the other hand, I’m right, you may suffer no consequences yourself, but your daughter will have had her life blighted by a set of meaningless and archaic beliefs that will have turned out to be untrue. We can both afford to take very little care of our personal beliefs, but I hope we would both be very careful about what we pass on to others.
There is, of course, the third possibility, that we are both wrong and that Zeus, or Allah, or Vishnu, or Osiris, or Thor, or Jupiter, or Quetzalcoatl, or Tanis, or Belenos, or the souls of our ancestors, or a race of hitherto-unknown space aliens, will damn us both to eternal torments for failing to believe in their particular system. In which case we’re both going to look a bit silly.
sjab1958
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 4:38am:Mr Hovind, your belief in the bible and its contents seems to be selective. In your seminars you often quote from the bible, but I have found that your quotations are all too frequently incorrect, out of context, or even wrongly interpreted.
While you pay for your misdeeds, which aside from the evasion of taxes, include threats against people investigating you, and blatant lies when protesting your innocence, I suggest you ponder on one particular extract from the bible:
17: Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18: But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19: Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20: And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21: They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.
The taxes you wilfully chose not to pay to the US government belong to the US Government, the money you made with your so-called ‘mission’ is tax deductable and none of that money as you claim belongs to God, after all what would God do with all that money?
Samphire
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 5:10am:Hi Jason,
You did not previously mention that your friend was trying to combine science with religion – the inference was that he had a PhD and therefore, if his understanding of science was so good, he should not be confounded by the simple questions of a young girl. It is effectively a re-run of that silly story KH tells of his meeting on a plane with an unnamed professor from an unknown faculty at Berkeley University.
I don’t have a PhD in any subject. Neither do I run around falsely calling myself “Doctor” . And, yes, you probably need not only a PhD in physics, maths or cosmology but much more too to understand the Big Bang Theory. Personally, among much else, I cannot comprehend the Inflationary hypothesis which is a necessary paradigm in the currently generally accepted synthesis.
But cosmologists know more than anybody that there are great problems with the theory – although the best scientific explanation currently available to account for the observations it is still only a theory – and they work to solve those problems. Perhaps they never will but that is what makes the whole subject so exciting. To just say that “God did it” is a stultifying and tediously boring viewpoint and a denial of the human spirit of discovery.
As Richard Dawkins writes in the correspondence page of today’s London Times “…I never tire of how much we don’t know. ‘The God Delusion’ ends on just such a theme. Where do the laws of physics come from? How did the universe begin? Scientists are working on these deep problems, honestly and patiently. Eventually they may be solved. Or they may be insoluble. We don’t know.”
So you are entirely wrong in your allegation that we are promoting a scientific elite, indeed, we are not promoting anybody. Nor, contrary to your suggestion, do I hold to any religion. Your comment proves the paucity of your argument. Nor do scientists make up stories – they leave that to the writers of biblical texts. All they do is make observations and try to find a materialistic explanation for the causes of those observations. Such explanations necessarily do not involve God because God is not a materialistic cause and, whatever the Bible says, faith never moved a molehill let alone a mountain; God can perfectly well look after himself.
As for your allegation that the biblical story of creation has never been disproved – by which I assume that you mean Young Earth Creationsim – then you are wrong. I have disproved it in these webblogs by citing the existence of cosmological entities many times more than 10,000 lights years away. If we can see such entities (and we do have photos of them!) then the universe has to be older than your theory would allow. Observations, Jason, observations.
In short, all we are saying is – look around and open your minds. As Hamlet says to his friend “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
An increasing number of Christians can accept the idea of an ancient Universe. What is your problem that you cannot do so?
Kind regards
Samphire
P.S. Unlike your goodself, I have never been more than 100% certain of anything.
Millerfamily6
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 7:37am:Curious
Said this at 1:46pm:
In response to 10jtlbb2 and others who keep quoting KH’s “What law have I broken?” mantra here is your answer: The 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, sometimes referred to as “the law of the land.” The 16th amendment was passed by Congress on 12 July 1909 and ratified on 3 February 1913.
——————————————————————————–
Dear Curious,
In my post, I suppose I was just lamenting the sin that brings reproach upon our nation and that righteousness is not exalted any longer. I’m not advocating to anyone that they should not render unto Caesar since I, myself, do obesiance to the “giant.” My point was, shouldn’t the men of God be standing up to the big “giant”, and reminding him (the giant) that he is to serve the people in righteousness, and not that the people should become his slave! Also, I’m sure my brother in the Lord (KH) has every reason to question what he gives to Caesar because his ministry is the Lord’s; KH lives very modestly off of it, I can safely say. Living off the gospel is purely biblical so long as you are not being a burden to your flock. The people that give to KH’s ministry do so out of love for the Lord Jesus and out of love for this brother and, thus, are giving to God, and should not be taken away by Caesar. All of KH’s ministry belongs to the Lord; it is all for His glory!
Your quote above, regarding the ratification of the 16th amendment is to my understanding questionable. Was it ever, truly, ratified? We have the right to question these things, because if deceit is involved, then the Lord would have His people stand up for righteousness. It is quite evident, even to a simpleton like myself, that due to the nature of the beast (IRS code) there is deceit at work within the IRS system. Folks need to be able to understand what their responsibilities are concerning their taxes, in a straightforward manner. I agree with chris_687 above that most people just pay to keep the “wolves” at bay; to avoid the hassle it would bring to fight it. There is so much that is questionable concerning the government and its agencies, and to say that people must cower down and use the standard “render unto caesar” point, is to me, saying that it is never right to stand up to injustice or ungodliness within Caesar’s court.
Sincerely,
Millerfamily6
Are you telling me it is unbiblical to question or hold accountable the government and its rights to exercise itself over us as a people?
Again, my point is that we, as followers of the Most High God, should have the right to question our our responsiblity to pay tax dollars that support ungodliness. Taxes should be for the good of the nation, such as highways, military, etc.
I do earnestly seek for truth and justice, because my God is the Truth and is perfectly just:0) I do know this….I may never see our government change or be held accountable while living here on this earth, but one day soon, my Lord Jesus will return and set them straight, hallelujah! His government shall reign upon this earth.
GaryMurray
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 9:35am:Samphire
Said this at 12:08pm: “You can go back and look at the quote, I don’t think it necessary to repost your entire comment”
I wasn’t squabbling over her comments, I simply stated that just because her statements were in contrast with your beliefs, they did not warrant the academic judgments made.
I don’t see how the Dark Ages fit into the discussion. An attempt to inject criticism on Christians, no doubt; but not worth retort.
“A junior school teacher is unlikely to have the depth of knowledge of someone higher up the educational food-chain.”
You’re assuming this only because they weren’t able to provide a solid response to a simple question by a 9 year-old, how presumptuous. Could it be that there are no solid answers to many questions relating to the evolutionary idea? I recall several debates in the past where the same questions were asked of college professors and experts in related fields, of which none could provide any logical or solid answers.
“When you wrote “Origin of Life” I assume that you meant “History of Life”;”
No, I wrote “Origin of Life” because this is the title of the section of this book filled with many chapters about Evolution, not ‘History of Life’. I provided the ISBN, it is available online, or I’m sure at a local library.
It is upsetting that page after page after page, it is drilled into the student that the earth and life is millions of years old. That it came about by some type of unexplained scientific phenomenon and life as we know it today is the result of this method.
Why is this offensive? Over 500 pages in different aspects of science discuss in detail, the evolutionary theories. Though time to time they put in the disclaimer that “We may never know exactly how old the earth is” or “We might never know how a single organism evolved into life today”, but it is always followed by “But most scientists believe…”. This is unacceptable, this doesn’t disclaim the evolution theory, it only claims no known age of the earth and no known understanding of how the first organism evolved into life. It is still assumed by the reader that the evolution method discussed is the absolute evidence of life.
Furthermore, the evidence that is provided doesn’t discuss in detail the margin of error that is found during the discovery process. The research results of each theory isn’t revealed to the reader, only those that collaborate with the original hypothesis is actually provided. The book still supports theories such as Spontaneous Generation and other evolution upsets. They do say these theories were tested and disproved, but instead of throwing the theories out, on the next page you find they are building a new foundation on these theories that were proven wrong!
Even you should be able to see the corruption and danger in this type of teaching method! If it is proven wrong, why is it still listed in the textbooks? Thomas Edison created the light bulb. He found one way to make it work, but took him 100 failures before he found the one way. Can you show me a text book that discusses in detail his 100 failures, no? I can show you many that discuss his 1 success.
Finally…
“Special creation was given half a page and ended as follows”
Wow, half page? The Biology text book I am referring only gave creation a 4 sentence paragraph. You have to agree that both of these ideas, evolution and creation are faith based because not all evidence available for both are solid, it takes a bit of faith to believe what you believe. So if this statement is true, why does evolution have over 500 pages of discussion and creation has only 1 paragraph to offset? Seems to me there is an evolution agenda being driven.
As for the ToE the book states “There are no laws of evolution, only well-corroborated hypotheses which collectively add together to form a well-attested theory”.”
Built on the imagination of man, and tested with a considerable (yet overlooked) margin of error inconsistent with the findings of other certified experts, the evolutionary movement has become more and more prevalent in today’s society because it is accepted by government. I will never allow my children to be taught only what the government accepts as fact. It wasn’t long ago that my government was founded on the fundamentals of Christian values, Bibles were being used as textbooks. Our nation was better once, now look at it. It isn’t a coincidence that we are considered the ‘melting pot’ of the world. The further we get from the old heritage, the more we become like those we struggled to free ourselves from over 250 years ago.
As for your last statement in your post…
“Now, when it comes to genuine lies (i.e. the deliberate distortion or misrepresentation of known facts) would you like to discuss the origins of the Christian church?”
I don’t care much to discuss ‘genuine lies’ about the Christian church. I am very secure in my faith and my religion.
In order for any such discussion to have any meaning, you would have to first determine which ‘Christian’ church you are discussing. Pentecostal, Southern Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Independent Fundamental, etc… You see each of these have their own set of beliefs and their own history. They even have their own ID to some extent. So any such discussion would probably prove to be pointless. I highly doubt that any Christian would actually consider such a dialogue with a non-believer, but there again, some might enjoy such a debate.
God Bless, still praying for ya, Samphire and still love you.
GaryMurray
GaryMurray
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 10:29am:Samphire
Said this at 5:10am:
As for your allegation that the biblical story of creation has never been disproved – by which I assume that you mean Young Earth Creationsim – then you are wrong. I have disproved it in these webblogs by citing the existence of cosmological entities many times more than 10,000 lights years away. If we can see such entities (and we do have photos of them!) then the universe has to be older than your theory would allow. Observations, Jason, observations.
Samphire, by your statement above you are assuming that time is a constant. It has been observed and proven that time can change (ie slow down, speed up) in relation to gravitational and magnetic forces. Just like the evolution idea, your proof is substantiated by an assumption, not physical evidence, first of all. Secondly, you’re assuming that when God made creation, everything started young and became old. You’re not taking in to account that by a creationist point of view God has the ability to create things and bring them into any known stage of existance. Example, Adam and Eve were created as adults, not newborns.
By their own admittance, astronomers and physicists alike all claim that they have no understanding of the universe, space or time beyond our moon, more or less 10,000 light years out. Everything is speculation only. We can only see what is, not how it came to be, how long it took to become, nor if it is constant from one day to the next. Does anyone have photos of these ‘entities’ 10,000 years ago? Even 5,000 years ago? how about even 1,000 years ago? Was anyone even able to observe such an entity 10,000 years ago, even 5,000 years ago, even 1,000 years ago? No. Their age and existence is an assumption derived from the last 1 to 2 hundred years of relative research I’ve said time and time again, observation only proves an object is there, it does not prove how old it is, nor how it came to be. No one knows if space, time and time in space has always been constant as it is here on earth over the past 100 to 5,000 years.
If your ‘proof’ is correct then you would have to agree that since light is infinite, then light refractions and images are infinitely captured and bouncing around the universe. If this is the case, and the earth is ‘millions or billions’ of years old, why haven’t we been able to capture images of an old earth? If light bounces from one planet to a star, then another variant and back to us, why haven’t we bene able to capture these refractions or reflections? Why there should be trillions of images of our existance out there, that have travelled thousands of light years across the universe and bounced back by now!
You also mentioned:
“An increasing number of Christians can accept the idea of an ancient Universe. What is your problem that you cannot do so?”
Where are you getting these increasing statistics that more Christians are believing in an anchient universe? I’ve seen no evidence of this type of trend.
God Bless!
Gary Murray
[EDITOR'S NOTE: Generally, we have let posts pass ... but the speed of light is NOT a constant. For decades creationists proposed this, to the laughs of those still stuck in their dogmas. Do a web search on "light speed sodium". Yet again, creationists lead the way to better science. Also note that the highly vaunted "red shift" does not work, see Halton Arp's book "Seeing Red." And that the radiometric dating methods do not work ... still: http://www.icr.org/rate/ There is no real science supporting the "old universe" beliefs, using Earth time. 17 times the Bible says that the Lord stretches the Heavens, i.e. the universe is expanding: http://www.khouse.org/articles/1999/245/ ]
GaryMurray
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 12:00pm:FuManchu
Said this at 4:07am:
“There is, of course, the third possibility, that we are both wrong and that Zeus, or Allah, or Vishnu, or Osiris, or Thor, or Jupiter, or Quetzalcoatl, or Tanis, or Belenos, or the souls of our ancestors, or a race of hitherto-unknown space aliens, will damn us both to eternal torments for failing to believe in their particular system. In which case we’re both going to look a bit silly. ”
FuManchu,
Considering that all of the religions you have noted were heretical spawns from Christianity and the Bible, I don’t think that swearing by the ‘River Stix’ and not praying to Allah everyday would ever be a concern of any Christians, and certainly not an evolutionist. Knowing your type, I am assuming you would like my proof of these heretic religions and how the were derived from one source. I can post this, but I will only post my evidence if you promise to read it carefully. I say this because it will take well over 30 minutes for me to type it, and I have a wpm average of about 103, so if you request my evidence expect it to be a lengthy post.
As for putting your faith in the belief of those who spend their lives researching a specific idea, Theologians and Historians have been researching and producing accurate evidence that the events that took place in the Bible truly did happen, for centuries before the evolutionary ideas even surfaced. If your pre-requisite in believing a theory or idea is due to the amount of time and sacrifice one puts in their work… Then go ahead, accept Christ as your living sacrifice, join the good side because research and undisputed evidence of the Bible’s facts over centuries have long since been available even before the idea of evolution was a glimmer in the eye of the Grandfather of the man who first theorized it.
God Bless,
Gary Murray
jtlbb2
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 12:16pm:Curious,
Okay that’s fine. But my point wasn’t that he didn’t break any laws. It was that in his mind, he is innocent because he, from what I understand, has never received a straight answer on that issue. And I will not argue that the 16th Amendment is the law that he broke, because I am not a law student nor have I studied the Constitution very much.
Verna
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 2:25pm:Dear Dr Hovind,
I was watching your dvd’s again on Friday and you mentioned that Feb 9th is your spiritual birthday. I realized at the time it was the same date. I hope that your spiritual birthday was memerable in a good way. I continue to pray for you. Our hope is in the future. Away from this place in a place with no pain or tears. We will joyfully do our duty while here but we have a glorious future to look forward to. I hope that you remember this when the days are difficult.
Your Friend,
Verna
Seeds
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 3:35pm:Hello, my dear friend in Christ,
I am praying for you daily. Remember the old song we used to sing, “Keep on the firing line”? The firing line has certainly changed over the years, hasn’t it?
I was reading in Nehemiah yesterday, and was moved again by the words in 4:17, “…every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand, held a weapon.” Our weapon is the Word of God, our “sword”,for “we wrestle not against flesh and blood”. Let us hold fast to the work before us.
There is a new song out now, which contains the words: “Hold fast, help is on the way”
It really is…I pray for you to have the grace of God to hold fast.
Curious
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 5:02pm:Dear Millerfamily6,
What is questionable about your understanding of the 16th amendment? According to Article 5 of the U.S. Constitution, amendments may be proposed by either a 2/3 vote of both houses of Congress or it can be proposed by vote of 2/3 of the state legislatures. Ratification comes by a 3/4 vote of either the state legislatures or conventions called by the states for determining the ratification of a proposed amendment. Since, in 1913, Alaska and Hawaii were not yet states, the proposed amendment became law when the 36th state voted in favor of that amendment. You can see a breakdown, state by state, at any number of websites simply by googling U.S. Constitution. More states can choose to ratify an amendment after the 3/4 criteria has been met, but in reality it really doesn’t matter if or how those states vote. I honestly don’t understand your question of whether or not it was ever truly ratified. It satisfied the stipulations of Article 5; so then,yes, Amendment 16 was truly ratified and, therefore, is part of the law of our land.
I agree with you that we have a right to question things we disagree with concerning our government. We should also stand for what we believe is right. What we do not have the right to do is decide which laws we are going to obey. I don’t believe we have that choice. You, as a personal matter, may choose to disobey a particular law. But that is exactly what you have done … disobeyed. Your punishment, then doesn’t make you a martyr for the cause of Christ. You are simply paying the penalty for your willful disobedience. A very simplistic (just for the sake of argument) example is let’s say I’m driving to church, but am running late so I decide to exceed the speed limit. When I get pulled over should I be let off the hook because I was, in fact, going to church? No! I chose to disregard the law, therefore I must now pay the penalty for that choice. What if I think that the speed limit should be higher because it is a long stretch of road and doesn’t get a lot of traffic? It isn’t my choice to make. I still broke the law. Even though my intentions were good, I am wrong.
I hope I’ve explained myself a little better. It just seems to me that a lot of people want to rationalize what has been done (failure to pay taxes) by looking at all the good that has been done. We can’t; they’re two different things. On the other hand, if the shoe were on say someone like Bill Clinton or some other liberal Democrat, the same people who want KH out of jail would want BC buried under the jail! It just seems to me from the tone of many of these posts that many want it both ways.
Have a good day.
Curious
Jason
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 6:38pm:Thank you Samphire & Fumanchu
Your replies are just about what I expected to hear. Please forgive me if my willingness to discuss all your points is less than satisfactory. Firstly, I don’t have any PHD’s either, secondly, my experience with Jehovah Witnesses has taught me that entering into a debate with religious people is tiresome.
I have tried to express to you that in coming to believe in what I believe in, wasn’t without questions & doubts on every level. The questions you have put forward, expressing your own doubts & ‘what ifs’ are exactly what I talked about in my last post to you, (they are endless).
It appears that the rules of this dialog (as laid down by yourselves) are that ‘one’ has to have a PHD to debate a contending belief to one laid down by someone else with a PHD. As I do not have a PHD in cosmology, physics, math or anything else, I am by default excluded from having an opposing position. It appears by your rules I have no voice as I am not one of the intellectual elite, which you say you are not promoting.
Not only this, but if it was my desire to enter into & try and win a debate with you, (by your rules) I would have to gain a PHD in every subject known to man just to enter. You seem to have stacked the rules against freedom of thought.
Samphire you seem to be 100%
convinced that you have proved the bible wrong, (without a PHD?). I contend with you that you are mistaken, have you considered absolutely everything, every single ‘what if’ in all your calculations? I’m not going to offer up for debate the reasons for my doubts to your claims. Besides not being allowed a voice, I fear we may end up looking like children squabbling in the playground.
Your vigorous denial that God exists is or is a materialistic cause for anything, is nothing short of a religious. At least I can accept my religiosity.
FumanChu
As far as whether there might be a third possibility to choose from apart from your religion or mine, (there are many other religions). This is a good point and I don’t mind trying to offer an answer.
I understand the logic, who’s to say which religion is right, but if I made my decisions upon a dice roll, you would be right & I would have a cause for concern? However, contrary to what others might like to promote, one’s brain is not left at the door when one accepts an alternative explanation to evolution.
To give a reason for my faith to someone who doesn’t appear to believe in anything spiritual, might be likened to describing light to a blind man (figuratively speaking no offence intended).
What I mean is, I wonder whether you believe in anything spiritual at all?
Are you convinced that there is nothing more to the universe than what can be measured using naturalistic science?
Would you first concede that there is a spiritual?
Without a belief in the spiritual, Would there be any fruit in trying to explain to you about a relationship with God?
Would you not just say, “it’s all in your imagination”, just like I used to?
But for what it is worth, I offer this reason for my faith (take it or leave it). The first & second greatest commandments (the most important thing in the universe according to Jesus) are to do with “Love”.
Love is elusive to naturalistic scientific investigation. However, we feel it when it is there, and it may hurt when it is absent, or cut off. It is generally agreed to be absolutely essential for the healthy development of a child’s mind into maturity.
Love cannot be measured, or quantified yet we can tell when more is given, and in the same way when less is given. We ourselves can interact with it, to receive or to repel when it is given or offered to us.
Love is massively powerful, to live without its embrace is considered the saddest of existences.
To try and manufacture a hypothesis or math to create love, would be the grossest betrayal of what love is and would show a persons lack of understanding as to the nature of love. One would be compelled to ponder questions as to how much love that person had ever actually experienced themselves.
To conclude this is one reason for my faith in God & why I am confident I am not wrong…..
I know I’m loved.
And yes I know this has nothing to do with the creation vs evolution discourse. On that subject I have already indicated that I find upon study & observation the account of creation gives a much more plausible explanation as to the evidence in the ground than any story an evolutionist has come up with.
I’ve not tried to convert you; I have left you free to believe who ever you want, even though I personally think you are likely to regret your choices for a long, long time.
I on the other hand I have felt tied up and restricted by your rules, not allowed to have my own opinion without being reminded of my place at the bottom of the intellectual ladder.
Jesus said you will know the truth for the truth will set you free.
With love from someone who tries to seek the truth
Jason x
Samphire
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 6:49pm:Hello again, Gary,
Responding to your ‘Speed of light” post. You said “By their own admittance, astronomers and physicists alike all claim that they have no understanding of the universe, space or time beyond our moon, more or less 10,000 light years out. Everything is speculation only.” Please would you cite the source of your statement as it doesn’t appear in any of the books on my shelves.
We can actually readily see if the speed of light in vacuo has changed over time by observing the rotation rate of quasars and other objects. If the speed of light had slowed down over the past 6,000 years then the rate of rotation as observed on Earth would also slow. But this is not what is observed. And remember, what we see in the heavens is not what it is now but what it was when the light rays set off on their journey to Earth. So, yes, we do have photos of galaxies as they were millions of years ago.
Paul’s contribution remains laughable. Sorry to be rude, Paul, but it really does take the biscuit. It is typical of how an uncomprehending creationist distorts a scientific discovery for his own ends: Here is an extract from the website Paul has linked: “An entirely new state of matter, first observed four years ago, has made this possible. When atoms become packed super-closely together at super-low temperatures and super-high vacuum, they lose their identity as individual particles and act like a single super- atom with characteristics similar to a laser. Such an exotic medium can be engineered to slow a light beam 20 million-fold from 186,282 miles a second to a pokey 38 miles an hour.”
Can anyone out there see the difference between the specially-engineered conditions prevailing in the above report and those in empty space? The article is completely irrelevant to the subject matter. Furthermore, the report was published in 1999 so Paul is out-of-date. I read a magazine article last week which reported that scientists have got the speed of light down to 20 mph using similar techniques – but not in vacuo!
As for your question,Gary, as to why we cannot capture images of an old Earth have you heard of Olber’s Paradox?
Finally, back to Paul.
In response to his radio-dating link please see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/helium/zircons.html for a very competent rebuttal of Dr.Humphries lame research.
As for Paul’s comment about “the Lord stretches out the heavens” please see my comments above. They work equally as well for a changing speed of light as they do in relation to an expanding Universe.
Sorry, Paul, but you must try to do better.
theguyfromaustralia
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 6:53pm:Sampshire… Kent talks to hundreds and hundreds of people on his travels. It’s hard enough to remember everyones name we meet. I find it hard to remember what to buy at the supermarket. I have to call my other half 3 or 4 times to remember what it was. I think yo ushould cut him some slack!
darling
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 6:57pm:chris_687 said this at 1:07am Feb10:
“What most of your crittics may not realize is that there isn’t a law requiring us to pay this tax… If there is a law, why won’t they show it to the People?”
I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve addressed this boards.
Here is the law again.
And here’s why whatever objections you may have won’t work.
You can lead a horse to water…
jtlbb2 said this at 12:16pm, Feb12:
“My point… was that in his mind, he is innocent because he, from what I understand, has never received a straight answer on that issue.”
I suspect that he’s received these answers, won’t accept them, and wants to argue. At this point, neither the IRS or anybody else is obligated to engage in discussion – the issues are long settled.
CreationCD Said this at 2:22am,Feb10:
“However, if you don’t have a problem with a supernatural source which has the power to create the universe, why…”
Beats me.
I said I didn’t have a problem with that notion, not that I was here to defend it.
Jason said this at 7:02pm Feb11:
You seem to want to inform me that to really understand the big bang theory you need to have a PHD in physics or cosmology.
I have no idea where you get that from.
My point is only that you can’t expect a coherent answer on any particular subject from someone who has a degree in an unrelated field.
It doesn’t mean they won’t know the answer. But you takes your chances.
GORGE Said this at 7:57pm:
“Normally, the defense portion of the trial is when you give your side of the issue. The fact that Kent offered no defense, *none*, does, indeed, speak volumes.”
Defense also gets to put their side of the issue when they get to cross-examine the prosecution’s witnesses. Mr. Hovind at least did that.
djhouk said this at 1:51am Feb12
“Did KH’s counsel feel that the prosecution didn’t prove its case and thus a defense was unnecesary?”
Apparently. It’s a common enough tactic, but I don’t think it was a good one here. I suspect that if they put on a defense then Mr. Hovind would have had to testify, and that would open him to cross-examination.
I doubt he’d want to do that.
Millerfamily6 said this at 7:37am Feb12:
Your quote above, regarding the ratification of the 16th amendment is to my understanding questionable. Was it ever, truly, ratified?
Yup. The secretary of state said so, the courts say so. The issue is settled.
There is no legal basis to the claim that it wasn’t.
“Folks need to be able to understand what their responsibilities are concerning their taxes, in a straightforward manner.”
The IRS provides many publications doing just that.
GORGE
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 7:28pm:Dear Mr Hovind and family
Just a quick message to say thankyou for all your hard work put into produceing your material.I was only givern your stuff about 4 months ago.It has blessed and encouraged me my family& the church.We have used it while witnessing on the streets,it has prooved a very useful and effective tool.
My word you have ruffled feathers with the religous followers of Evolution with their prophets Dawin and dawkins.
When I put your name in the serch engine I could not belive the amount of anti-hovind sites there are.Reading this blog as well,quite a stir.
Ive always said if you dont want critasism do nothing,so if thats a law,you must have done quite alot.
My church is praying that Gods will be done and that in all things you and your family will be always drawn to His word and His holy Spirit.
Matthew
Said this on February 12th, 2007 at 7:53pm:The speed of light is NOT a constant.
Talk Origins disputes that is incorrect.
CMarychurch
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 3:21am:“Generally, we have let posts pass … but the speed of light is NOT a constant. For decades creationists proposed this, to the laughs of those still stuck in their dogmas. Do a web search on “light speed sodium”. Yet again, creationists lead the way to better science.”
Oh, mercy!!
Nobody ever suggested that light can not slow down. Light has a MAXIMUM speed. Slowing light down is the basis for refraction and is not some type of paradigm shifting observation.
[EDITED]
Why can’t supporters of “slowing light” grasp this simple concept? “c” is the maximum speed of light. “c” is a constant. Light can travel at any speed up to and including “c”.
“c” is an important concept is a lot of interrelated physical processes. The MAXIMUM speed of light can not be changed without significant disruption to the operation of the Universe.
[EDITOR'S NOTE: As textbooks lag behind science and sometimes contain blatant inaccuracies (see Dr. Hovind's Seminar #4, "Lies in the Textbooks" or the Gabler's http://www.textbookreviews.org/ (left side "Textbook Ratings"), yes, they have indeed taught the speed of light as a "constant." And again, we were right. There is evidence that God has stretched the heavens, compared to our perspective on this small planet. There is no real evidence that the universe is old. Evolution remains a mental hiding place and a headless false religion. If evilution was ascribed to an alternate deity then Christians would see it for what it is. But by saying "nothing" created everything by "random accident" and then calling it "scientific" to believe such things, when it is the opposite of any scientific expectation, some, unfortunately, have been fooled by this headless false religion. For those interested, also see Dr. Ackerman's book, free to download, "It's a Young World After All" http://www.creationism.org/ackerman/ ]
CMarychurch
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 3:35am:* Also note that the highly vaunted “red shift” does not work, see Halton Arp’s book “Seeing Red.”
*17 times the Bible says that the Lord stretches the Heavens, i.e. the universe is expanding: http://www.khouse.org/articles/1999/245/
These arguments a contradictory. One can not argue against expansion of the Universe (red shift, etc) and also claim the Universe was expanded by a supernatural entity.
The use of contradictory arguments is quite common within YEC circles. It is my hypothesis this is due to YEC measuring the validity of an argument by its ability to defend a predetermined conclusion. There is no need, therefor, to check if the argument is coherant with any other arguments. I’ve compiled a list of such observations (not all are science based)
Evolution Theory says humans will become like gods. Evolution Theory says people are nothing but animals.
Both evolutionists and creationists use the same evidence but viewed with different assumptions. There is no evidence for evolution.
The Geologic Column is a result of a single global flood sorting creatures according to density or habitat. The Geologic Column doesn’t exist anywhere except in textbooks.
Matter can’t be created or destroyed. Everything was created.
No scientist dares speak out against the dogma of evolution. Here are some quotes from famous scientists “admitting” Evolution Theory is false.
Uniformitarianism is an unsubstantiated assumption. If you project it means the Earth is only 6,000 years old.
The universal constants are finely tuned – change just one would make life impossible – therefore the Universe must have been created. The speed of light, radioactive decay rates, etc have changed dramatically over 6000 years.
Young Earth Creationism is based upon the absolute truth of the infallible Word of God. Young Earth Creationism should be allowed into the science curriculum because there are many interpretations of truth.
Society is corrupted by Evolution Theory. Society is corrupted because of the Original Sin starting with Adam and Eve.
Evolution Theory leads to racism because it implies some people are “better” than others. Variation within a “kind” is micro-evolution which is completely compatible with a young Earth and the Bible.
FuManchu
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 4:50am:GaryMurray:
I will certainly promise to read your proof, if you don’t mind posting it. If you feel that it is too long for the comments section of a blog, then feel free to post it elsewhere and link to it, or you can email me personally (fiendishfumanchu@gmail.com).
Jason:
I appreciate your point about love. The problem I have is that it gives the impression that you are basing your opinions on life, death, science, heaven, hell and everything else on what amounts to, quite literally, a ‘gut feeling’. Love is a wonderful experience, but one can extend its interpretations too far.
I may not believe in the spiritual, but that’s not the same thing as actively disbelieving. I don’t believe in God in the same way that I don’t believe in anything else for which I have seen no evidence. I would like nothing better to be able to believe in some kind of God, but I’m not going to abdicate my usual critical processes in order to do so. I’m interested to hear that apparently you used to be of the same viewpoint as me, though – if I may ask, what changed your mind? (If it’s too personal a question, feel free to use my email address as above.)
To be absolutely honest, it doesn’t help that we’re only discussing this as a result of Kent Hovind’s sentencing. Whatever the man’s aims, in all sincerity I do not believe that it is possible to watch Hovind’s videos and not be left with a profound distaste for him and his methods – as a result, a lot of what I’ve said has inevitably been tinged by the knowledge that you came here to support him. Another reason why this is a bad forum for such debate, I suppose.
On an unrelated note, the same look back brought up a post in which you (unless there’s another Jason) described yourself as ‘The guy from England’. That’s actually quite interesting, since I’d assumed (unjustifiedly, I suppose) that the kind of teacher-challenging you’ve described only went on in American schools. We seem to have a sizeable contingent of my fellow-countrymen here, from both sides, however, so perhaps I shouldn’t be so surprised.
Fre
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 5:00am:Dear Hovind Family,
In Holland we also pray for you and your family. I pray that you will be given the strength to hold on. And to continue your evangelical skills in jail to reach people with the gospel. As a preacher once said ” If the load is to heavy don’t ask God for a lighter load! but pray that you may have stronger shoulders to carry the heavy load!!” That’s excactly what i’ll pray for in your case. Stronger shoulders. Remember his ways are not our ways!
God bless
Fre riepma, Oldehove (holland)
Samphire
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 6:39am:In my haste last night to get to bed I did not do Paul Abramson’s appended note justice. This is what he wrote:
[EDITOR’S NOTE: Generally, we have let posts pass … but the speed of light is NOT a constant. For decades creationists proposed this, to the laughs of those still stuck in their dogmas. Do a web search on “light speed sodium”. Yet again, creationists lead the way to better science. Also note that the highly vaunted “red shift” does not work, see Halton Arp’s book “Seeing Red.” And that the radiometric dating methods do not work … still: http://www.icr.org/rate/ There is no real science supporting the “old universe” beliefs, using Earth time. 17 times the Bible says that the Lord stretches the Heavens, i.e. the universe is expanding: http://www.khouse.org/articles/1999/245/ ]
Point by point:
1. “Light speed sodium.” The article to which I referred yesterday is in the New Scientist, Feb 10th P.11. I had only scanned the report fleetingly and not taken in its full impact. In fact, it was really concerning the slowing down of data transmission in a laser pulse by transferring the data and storing it in a Bose-Einstein condensate and then transferring the captured data back into a second laser pulse. The overall effect was to slow down the speed of the data transmission to 16 kph (10 miles on hour) rather than the 20 mph I mentioned above. This experiment, though, has no relevance to the sol in the vacuum of space.
However, the Paul’s reference to “light speed sodium” is also an irrelevance.
The report on the experiment at http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1999/02.18/light.html has this to say:
“Vacuums hundreds of trillions of times lower than the pressure of air at Earth’s surface, and temperatures almost a billion times colder that that in interstellar space, are needed to produce the condensate”. Interstellar space is therefore a billion times too hot to have any effect on the sol using the Bose-Eistein condensate effect. Paul’s reference is therefore irrelevant. Furthermore, Paul goes on to quote “the Lord stretches out the heavens”. In other words, the Universe is expanding. So, if the Universe is bigger today than it was yesterday then yesterday it was … sm..a..ll..er. (You can almost hear KH speaking, can’t you?). If the Universe was smaller in times past then it must also have been hotter which makes the conditions for the slowing of the sol even worse.
Of course, Paul’s reference is just another example of YECs grasping at straws. Ten years ago they would have been saying that the sol had slowed down exponentially over the last 6,000 years quoting the thoroughly debunked Barry Settlefield hypothesis, an hypothesis you will not find the better-educated YECs still using. Now we have Paul suggesting that the sol has speeded up over time – unless I have misconstrued him. Surely, he is not suggesting that interstellar space is currently filled with a Bose-Einstein condensate? On the upside, interstellar space is too empty to hear anyone laughing.
2. Paul says “Yet again, creationists lead the way to better science.”. Hang on. Have I missed something here? What on Earth have YECs got to do with discovering the sol in a Bose-Einstein condensate? I very much doubt that the work was carried out by YECs (not that they could not do so) but it certainly takes a YEC to misconstrue and misuse it. As far as I know, the only published (but non-peer-reviewed) scientific laboratory research being carried out by YECs in furtherance of their hypotheses is that of the ICR into radiometric dating. The trouble for the YECs is that as slowly as they produce the research the quicker it is debunked as being bad science (see below).
3. Paul wrote “Also note that the highly vaunted “red shift” does not work, see Halton Arp’s book “Seeing Red.” ”. Again Paul is along way behind the science. Halton Arp is a very well-respected astronomer. I do not know his views on YEC. Back in the 1960s he proposed that the observed red-shift was in fact caused not by distant objects but by ejected material from active galactic nuclei. His hypothesis seemed to be supported by other data from nearby galaxies. Wonderful news, everybody back on the YEC bus, please.
But then in 1990 those pesky scientists put the Hubble telescope into space and took a few snaps (or ‘artistic impressions’ as my bro-in-law calls his holiday photos) which showed that the red-shifted objects lined up neatly with very distant galactic formations. The dimmer the galaxy, the more its red-shift. Could it be that the dimmer galaxies are further away than the brighter ones? The further away the galaxies the faster they must be receding – hence the red shift. Dunno, what do you think? Or “Duh” as KH would say. So, once again, YEC is shown not to be supported by the observations.
4. Paul wrote: “And that the radiometric dating methods do not work … still: http://www.icr.org/rate/ “e/
No, Paul, that is incorrect. I have given the link to the debunking article in a previous posting. For a detailed critique of Dr.Humphrey try http://www.nmsr.org/humphrey.htm. You should be prepared to be shocked.
5. Paul wrote: “There is no real science supporting the “old universe” beliefs, using Earth time.”. A very foolish statement unless the definition of “real science” is restricted to the sort of pseudo-science which is thought to support YEC.
As Steve Carlip writes on http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/aug06.html
“The overall result is that no one has found any evidence of changes in fundamental constants, to an accuracy of about a part in 10^11 per year. There are some recent, controversial claims of observational evidence for changes in certain constants (notably the “fine structure constant”) in the early Universe, but these are tiny, and would have minimal effects on radioactive decay rates. So the idea that decay rates could vary enough to make a significant difference to measurements of ages is ruled out experimentally.”
6. Paul wrote: “17 times the Bible says that the Lord stretches the Heavens, i.e. the universe is expanding: http://www.khouse.org/articles/1999/245/ ]”
In the same way, I suppose that He individually glues cars to the road – except when He takes his eye of the ball: then they skid. No, the Lord does not stretch the Heavens – it is a naturalistic process.
From the given link: “Gerald Schroeder has suggested that the expansion factor is well known from a number of quantum physics considerations as approximately 10^12. Sixteen billion years (a commonly suggested age of the universe) is about 6,000,000,000,000 days: applying the 10^12 expansion factor results in about 6 days! It all depends on whose clock you’re looking at!”.
Not withstanding it is overstating the currently widely-accepted age of the universe by about 2.5 billion years, I believe this statement to be utter bamboozling nonsense but cannot prove it as I don’t understand what it is trying to say. Can FuManchu or Matthew assist?
Samphire
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 7:15am:Hi Jason,
Your wrote: “Samphire you seem to be 100% convinced that you have proved the bible wrong, (without a PHD?). ”
No, I don’t. I say that the Bible is not a scientific treatise and should not be read as such. I can readily accept Genesis written in an allegorical or some other literary form. The OT was written by Jews and Jewish tradition teaches that the entire creation chapter did actually happen and in a physical sense, but on an entirely different level than what we now understand as the physical plane. Only after Adam and Eve ate from the Tree-of-Knowledge-of-Good-and-Evil, and the world turned inside out and upside down, did reality become as we know it today. Not exactly allegory but neither is it literal as we understand the meaning of the word.
You then said “Your vigorous denial that God exists…”. I have never said any such thing – ever; how can anybody prove a negative? But I accept your apology.
I am perfectly happy to keep the naturalistic and spiritual worlds apart. My argument is with those who try to combine them in a manner that devalues both. Leave science to the scientists and the theology to the Theologians.
I agree with you about Jehovah’s Witnesses. They always walk quickly away when I start in. Why? By the way, do they generally come under the banner of “Christians”?
Kind regards
Samphire
Sade Tennyson
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 7:34am:FOR ALL IN THIS BLOG; TALKING ABOUT IRS & INCOME TAX LAWS, I SAW THIS & I THINK THIS COULD BE OF HELP!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&hl=en
(NOTE: this video is a bit long) & I pray the truth will prevail in Jesus name.
NOTE: chris_687 & Miller family…….I guess this is what you refer to………
We as God’s children should pray & be prepared!!!!!
David
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 7:57am:The distance to the stars and the time their light takes to reach earth is a terrible reason not to believe in God.
1. When God set the stars in their places, every point from their creation to their places in space, perpendicular to the earth, would have been flooded in light. A trail of light from earth to the star. If a wall was put in front of a star, we would still see that star for millions of years. For any given star, I believe if we could travel 10,000 light years (from earth) at a 90 degree angle from that star, we would not see the star or its light. Something to think about.
2. God could have also created the stars with their light already billions of light years in all directions.
3. The speed of light may not have always been a constant.
Sade Tennyson
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 7:59am:Dr. Kent Hovind & family,
Precious greetings to you all in Jesus worthy name.
Just to exhort you to rest in the Lord & put all your trust in the Lord Jesus as your advocate.
The enemy may range but the Lord Jesus Christ will prevail in Jesus name.
Be encouraged with this Hymn:
Life is like a mountain railroad, with an engineer that’s brave;
We must make the run successful, from the cradle to the grave;
Watch the curves, the fills, the tunnels; never falter, never quail;
Keep your hand upon the throttle, and your eye upon the rail.
Refrain
Blessèd Savior, Thou wilt guide us,
Till we reach that blissful shore;
Where the angels wait to join us
In Thy praise forevermore.
You will roll up grades of trial; you will cross the bridge of strife;
See that Christ is your Conductor on this lightning train of life;
Always mindful of obstruction, do your duty, never fail;
Keep your hand upon the throttle, and your eye upon the rail.
Refrain
You will often find obstructions; look for storms of wind and rain;
On a fill, or curve, or trestle, they will almost ditch your train;
Put your trust alone in Jesus; never falter, never fail;
Keep your hand upon the throttle, and your eye upon the rail.
Refrain
As you roll across the trestle, spanning Jordan’s swelling tide,
You behold the Union Depot into which your train will glide;
There you’ll meet the Superintendent, God the Father, God the Son,
With the hearty, joyous, plaudit, “Weary pilgrim, welcome home!”
Hymn is copied from http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/r/lrailway.htm
PUT YOUR TRUST ALONE IN JESUS AS ADMONISHED IN THIS HYMN.
Ps 115:11 Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.
Ps 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Ps 118:9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
Ps 125:1 A Song of degrees. They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.
Pr 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pr 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
The joy of the Lord Jesus will remain your strength, my beloved brethren.
The battle is the Lords & the victory is yours in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
Remember the situation of Israel with David & Goliath….
1Sa 17:47 And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD‘S, and he will give you into our hands.
Remember the case of Jehoshaphat
2Ch 20:15 And he said, Hearken ye, all Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, and thou king Jehoshaphat, Thus saith the LORD unto you, Be not afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude; for the battle is not yours, but God’s.
Be encouraged further knowing that the battle is the Lords!!!
Ex 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
2Ch 20:17 Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you.
Keep on reading the word of God my brethren & the Lord, the Lord of Host, He shall fight for you & you shall hold your peace in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ & it shall be known that our GOD is THE MOST HIGH GOD
Ps 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
Saints of God keep on praying & let the Lord our God arise & let His enemies be scattered in the name of Jesus Christ.
Ps 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
Sade Tennyson. London UK.
Millerfamily6
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 8:12am:Dear Curious and All,
Please check out these links concerning the ratification of the 16th Amendment: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17398
http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com
Is deceit involved? You decide, as every American should be aware of this information in order to decide for themselves. Probably most of us will just choose to continue to pay to keep the wolves at bay, I suspect.
Also, there are issues as to what is taxable income (who can be taxed) and what the founding fathers intended with taxation. I can tell ya’ it’s not what we’ve got today!! The IRS laws, however, are too complicated for the simple folk to figure out. That’s not right! Somebody ought to do something. I agree that it is right to obey laws, unless those laws cause us to disobey our Lord (your example of speed limit laws are laws for our own good). What does that say about where our tax money goes and what it funds, i.e., abortion and other abominations to the Lord Jesus Christ. Do we do it just because Caesar says to? Will the Lord hold us accountable for that money we gave to Caesar to fund such abominations? Pray tell, please, men of God! What can be done?
And again, Kent Hovind’s ministry belongs unto the Lord and it is His work. KH is a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which the government, according to our own Constitution, has no jurisdiction over; therefore, they cannot interfere with this man’s right to preach the gospel and to live of the gospel. He is innocent! The government is too big and power hungry, and under satan’s power, wanting to make slaves of its people and stop the mouths of those who are a hindrance to their work. I believe some godly men (and we women need to be praying for our men) need to get down on their faces before the Lord, asking Him what to do about the situation in our country with a government out of control; seeking Him for the fullness of His Spirit so they may speak and preach with boldness (I realize there are some out there doing that, but of all the churches we have here in America, there are relatively few). Of course, that may be too much to hope for in this Laodicean church age in which we are living. Nevertheless, I continue to ask the Lord for it:0) Most in the churches believe they are rich and have need of nothing; however, the Lord says they are poor, blind, and naked. I was one of them, but the Lord’s grace pulled me out, amen!
Regardless, if righteousness is exalted once again in this once great nation, or not, I know my Lord is returning soon to set them straight and they will bow their knee to Him and say that He is Lord, hallelujah, and wish they’d done so to begin with.
Blessings of grace and peace to the Hovinds! We love you and you are in our hearts and prayers, continually.
Samphire
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 10:05am:Hey, Paul,
You wrote “If evilution was ascribed…..”. Now we don’t want that kind of language otherwise some impolite evilutionists will start calling you a cretinist. The posts have been relatively well-behaved overall (which is unusual on this sort of heat generating subject – possibly contributing to global warming) so please let’s stay polite.
Kind regards
Samphire
GaryMurray
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 10:11am:Samphire
Said this at 6:49pm:
——————————————————————————–
Hello again, Gary,
“Responding to your ‘Speed of light” post. You said “By their own admittance, astronomers and physicists alike all claim that they have no understanding of the universe, space or time beyond our moon, more or less 10,000 light years out. Everything is speculation only.” Please would you cite the source of your statement as it doesn’t appear in any of the books on my shelves.”
I thought I had posted this, but I found this info listed in the Science Textbook I posted earlier. ISBN: 0-007-825925-8. I don’t have the book directly in front of me as it is my Sister-In-Laws book so please feel free to research it online and verify my statement.
I said “All Claim”. I will retract that statement as I’m not sure that it said “ALL” claim, I believe the actual word is “Many”.
——————————————————————————–
Samphire
Said this at 6:49pm:
“We can actually readily see if the speed of light in vacuo has changed over time by observing the rotation rate of quasars and other objects. If the speed of light had slowed down over the past 6,000 years then the rate of rotation as observed on Earth would also slow. But this is not what is observed. And remember, what we see in the heavens is not what it is now but what it was when the light rays set off on their journey to Earth. So, yes, we do have photos of galaxies as they were millions of years ago. ”
Several problems with this is first, you’re assuming the distance from the stars and quasars are the same today as they were ‘millions’ of years ago, and there is absolutly no indefinite way to know this. Secondly, and mentioned already, you’re still assuming that light and time has always been constant.. Take a look at these as my rebuttal to your post in relation…
A few interesting science and physic articles that claim light IS NOT constant.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/10/991005114024.htm
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/constant_changing_010815.html
http://www.ldolphin.org/constc.shtml
Here is a very interesting article that would be used against Creationist because it states light is a constant inside a vacuo and outside a vacuo any change in its speed would be insignificant. I am posting this because I wanted to point out the corruption of hidden details they use to cover up that which might shake up the astrophysics community…
Why I believe this to be relative to the current discussion is because this article that claims light IS a constant… Article is from 2003…
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/astro/research/PWAPR03webb.pdf
If you read the above pdf, you’ll find that they tried several experiments trying to conclude light as being a constant or not.. Stated was this quote “we cannot study α with any reasonable precision using the quasars themselves.”
Though, it is by the observation and study of quasars that they claim they can develop a ‘‘universal history’ of at least 1 billion years”. Here lies the problem. They have no way to know for sure that the relative amounts of different isotopes of the same elements in the quasar spectra equals that of the laboratory spectra they tested in. Supposedly, they did account for this and by their own statement “we have looked at this effect in detail and it is unable to explain the quasar results. In fact, averaged over the whole quasar sample, we find that any attempt to include these effects in our interpretation of the quasar data is likely to make the results even more statistically significant.
In lamens terms, what they’re saying is that, they assume that adding any type of terrestrial elements that could actually exist in the actual quasar and putting them in our laboratory tests would probably just prove our theory even more conclusively, so let’s not do it…!?
I ask you, if you had the ability to prove conclusively, something that has never been conclusive, and it is a topic of strong debate among scientists, why wouldn’t you do so? Perhaps the answer lies in the very article itself…
“Confirmation that α is changing would have profound implications for physics. For instance, the equivalence principle-one of the cornerstones of relativity – states that in freely falling reference frames, the outcome of any non-gravitational experiments is independent of when and where it is carried out.
Changes in the value of α would constitute a violation of the equivalence principle. However, this is not necessarily bad news because many of the theories that seek to unify the four fundamental forces of nature also violate the equivalence principle. The varying speed of light (VSL) theories, first proposed by John Moffat of the University of Toronto and developed in recent years by Joao Magueijo of Imperial College, John Barrow and others as an alternative to inflationary models in cosmology, could also lead to changes in value of α in the early universe. Inflation and VSL theories are both attempts to explain various features of the universe-such as its apparent flatness-that cannot be explained by the Big Bang theory alone.
If the quasar results are eventually confirmed, our concepts of space and time are sure to undergo radical transformations. Who knows how this will change our fundamental understanding of the universe?”
Perhaps the reason those further experiments with quasars weren’t concluded was because if α is proven not to be constant, it would have a devastating domino effect on the scientific community. It would cause the fundamental laws in place now of understanding the universe to be null and void, and furthermore could no longer be used as plausible evidence against creationism.
Sampfire, I found this specific article to be of particular interest and one that you might be surprised to read. An up to date twist of evidence that the constancy of light isn’t conclusive…
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6092.html
As of June 2004 (want to make sure you’re happy with the date as you consider anything in the 90’s or less to be inaccurate or ‘out dated’)
Specifically mentioned in the article is this…
Now, Lamoreaux, along with LANL colleague Justin Torgerson, has re-analysed the Oklo data using what he says are more realistic figures for the energy spectrum of the neutrons present in the reactor. The results have surprised him. Alpha, it seems, has decreased by more than 4.5 parts in 108 since Oklo was live (Physical Review D, vol 69, p121701).
“I’ve spent my career going back and checking things that are ‘known’ and it always leads to new ideas,” -Steve Lamoreaux
So what does all this mean in our debate here, Sampfire? Well, it means stale-mate.
You and I can both google constancy of light all day and continue to throw different articles at each other of scientific tests and findings which directly disprove the others side. I can name one researchers findings, you can nullify with other evidence, I can then come back and redeem it with more scientific evidence… This is my problem with all this…
If it is science, it shouldn’t be that way! I shouldn’t be able to find contradictions, nor should you in ‘scientific’ evidence! Science is the the comprehension or understanding of truth or facts by the mind (Websters 1828)… Truth or Facts. If something can’t be determined conclusive, it isn’t science, and others shouldn’t be led to believe it is fact!
Science should be a well educated hypothesis that is accompanied by a theory then the theory is put to the test through extensive research, study and observation. If there is any evidence at all during the research process that the hypothesis or theory is wrong, or can’t be conclusively proven fact, then the idea should be thrown away, but NEVER published as fact just because it is the closest explanation of something we want it to be.
The theory that light is or is not a constant is obviously a controversial subject. Not just between Science and Creation, but science and science, therefore one should conclude the evidence gathered by research that is inconclusive it should not be used to deduct the age of the universe.
While I understand the importants of this research in the scientific community is needed and should be edified in articles for research and testing purposes. It has no place in ‘factual’ science textbooks as it is a continuing investigation with inconclusive and various results which stem from one lab to the next. It hasn’t been proven fact, so it should be noted as theory until otherwise conclusive evidence is found to the contrary.
I guess what I am saying is… If you want to believe that light is a constant because several scientific discoveries have produced strong evidence that it is, and it fits best with your universal lifestyle, fine. I don’t think anyone in the world cares much what you believe as most don’t care what I believe; however, It does NOT need to be subject matter to be learned in our public schools to our children because it isn’t proven fact!
I expect and await your retort.
God Bless!
Gary Murray
Matthew
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 10:23am:Samphire,
Physics is way out my knowledge, but the speed of light would have to be over 410,000 times faster than the constant to measure out to 6000 years from 2.5 billion.
Samphire
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 10:52am:David
Said this at 7:57am:
“The distance to the stars and the time their light takes to reach earth is a terrible reason not to believe in God.”
Absolutely true , David, but that is not the argument which is about whether the universe is only 6,000 years old.
“When God set the stars in their places, every point from their creation to their places in space, perpendicular to the earth, would have been flooded in light. A trail of light from earth to the star. If a wall was put in front of a star, we would still see that star for millions of years. For any given star, I believe if we could travel 10,000 light years (from earth) at a 90 degree angle from that star, we would not see the star or its light. Something to think about.”
Yes, if I understood what you meant. You seem to believe in a deceitful God – one who would deliberately pretend that the stars were older than they were. And how do you explain supernova which appear to have exploded long before the YEC universe was created and whose effects upon their surrounding space can still be observed occurring – even though they never existed?
“God could have also created the stars with their light already billions of light years in all directions.”
Perhaps, but why would he do so? That would make the universe at the moment of creation even bigger than it was at the moment of creation. Hang on, that does not make sense. Quite.
“The speed of light may not have always been a constant.”
Possibly, but where is your evidence? Current observations seem to indicate that this was not the case. And even if it were, the effect of changing the speed of light would change the nature of the universe but we know from the Bible that the nature of the universe has remained essentially the same from its creation 6,000 years ago.
Samphire
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 11:21am:Paul wrote: “For those interested, also see Dr. Ackerman’s book, free to download, “It’s a Young World After All” http://www.creationism.org/ackerman/ ]”
For those who cannot find the energy to click their mouse on the above link I should point out that at the end of the first chapter dealing with the thickness of moondust the author states that he agrees with the position of Answers in Genesis and does not currently use the moon-dust argument. From there, it is all down hill.
Doc Ackerman is very small You cannot make him out at all, But many sanguine people hope To see him through a microscope. His jointed tongue that lies beneath A hundred curious rows of teeth; His seven tufted tails with lots Of lovely pink and purple spots, On each of which a pattern stands, Composed of forty separate bands; His eyebrows of a tender green; All these have never yet been seen– But Scientists, who ought to know, Assure us that they must be so…. Oh! let us never, never doubt What nobody is sure about!
With apologies to Hilaire Belloc
darling
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 11:42am:13Millerfamily6 said this at 8:12am:
“Please check out these links concerning the ratification of the 16th Amendment:”
Certainly – if you’ll check out these showing how the courts have dealt with those arguments:
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#ratification
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/16th.htm
Of course, the response to these links is generally to ignore them, and repeat the original assertion as if they’d never been mentioned. Horse to water, and all that…
Also, there are issues as to what is taxable income (who can be taxed)
Oddly enough, nothing that would concern the average person.
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/JustNoLaw.htm
Tax is imposed on the taxable income of every… individual.
Your taxable income is your gross income minus allowable deductions.
Your gross income is all income from whatever source derived.
GORGE
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 11:57am:Darling
You said at 6:57-
GORGE Said this at 7:57pm:
“Normally, the defense portion of the trial is when you give your side of the issue. The fact that Kent offered no defense, *none*, does, indeed, speak volumes.”
I WROTE NO SUCH THING!!!
I trust this is just a simple reading error on your part.
JR Turner
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 12:04pm:Dear brothers and sisters.
Where is the law that makes one liable for the tax in question?
Have you seen it posted here? If not, why not?
If you are convinced without proof then by all means, send them YOUR money.
One has the right to voluntarily send money to anyone.
NO ONE has the right to force another to send money to any one for any purpose. We the People CANNOT delegate authority to our SERVANT GOVERNMENT that we ourselves DO NOT possess.
You may want to insert the TEN COMMANDMENTS here.
The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights have not been repealed. To this very day each and every public servant is required by law to swear an oath to protect and defend it BEFORE they may lawfully assume their office.
We the People do not hold a gun to their head and force them to swear their oath. Why allow our SERVANTS to hold a gun to our heads while they violate their own sworn oath to protect and defend OUR Constitution???
The Constitution is still to this very day referenced as the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND. Any other laws, codes, statutes, regulations, ordinances, executive orders, acts, memo’s, good idea’s or figments of imagination which are repugnant to the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND are null and void as if they had never been considered.
If our SERVANTS cannot be trusted with their own sworn oath to the Constitution then how can they be trusted with laws, codes, statutes, regulations, ordinances, executive orders, acts, memo’s, good idea’s or figments of their own imagination.
The very office that any public servant holds exists ONLY in these documents. Should ANY officer seek to defeat these documents then he/she has vacated their own office and forfeited their salary and pension. See the 14th Amendment sections 3 and 4.
Read the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Don’t condemn someone until you have read them all at least twice. It does not take long to read 100 or so pages.
The common man can read and comprehend the Constitution with no outside assistance. There is no other way to hold government accountable to We the People. Perhaps this is why our public fool system is getting better and better at NOT teaching our children to read. We defeated one unaccountable government to establish one that would be accountable to We the People. We CANNOT print enough money to afford another unaccountable government nor can we have enough children to feed it.
2 Chronicles 7:14 – God’s Promise and Warning
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
TRUTH IS NOT DEPENDENT ON OUR BELIEF IN IT. IT IS THE BREATH OF GOD!!!
“DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU” !!!
Justice is not served by putting INNOCENT people in jail.
We have searched for the law ourselves. We have humbly asked for the law to be entered into the court record. Juries have asked for the law and their request was denied. We have petitioned our servant government for the law and have been ignored.
Go to Givemeliberty.org and read.
Tell these Americans it was all for nothing http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/wreaths-2006.htm Don’t spit on their graves.
Kent and Jo Hovind are INNOCENT!!! The FRAUD continues!!!
Kubiak
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 12:37pm:Dear Kent,
I called the CSE office this morning, and the young lady who answered the phone said that she couldn’t give your mailing address over the phone. So, she referred me to this blog site. I wanted to send you a letter of encouragement and I hope this message reaches you. I just wanted to say what so many others have already said on your blog — to thank you for being faithful to Jesus Christ in using your gifts to glorify Him. I have your video seminar series and it has brought much encouragement to me. I was also at one of your seminars here in Cedar Park, TX about 1 and 1/2 yrs ago. I don’t know much specifics about the case the IRS brought against you and your wife and I don’t really care as I totally respect your privacy. I perceive that you are a faithful a man of God and wouldn’t intentionally defraud the Government; and almost certain that their conviction is unjust and a travesty. Another blogger compared you to Ted Haggard and Jim Bakker — I totally disagree with this ignorant person.
Please continue the fight and know that I will continue to pray for this conviction to be overturned on appeal. In the meantime, please continue(as I know you will) to spread the message in jail. Regardless of what they did to get put in jail, God loves those men in there just as much as he loves you and me. Praise God for the 16 who have already chosen an eternal address in heaven! I am praying for you every day that you will continue to be dangerous to the devil, and also for the LORD’s protection over you and blessings over all aspects of your ministry(whether in chains or out).
Please update your blog on a frequent basis. God will do powerful things in and through you in your present circumstances.
With thanks,
John
GaryMurray
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 1:07pm:Samphire
Said this at 7:15am:
——————————————————————————–
“Leave science to the scientists and the theology to the Theologians.”
Samphire,
Question… What happens if you run across a Scientist who also has a degree in Theology?
They’re out there, believe it or not. Most of their work is discredited due to their creationist belief debunking their scientific research. Heck, there are scientists who have never taken a theology class in their lives but believe the Bible and have been subject to a life of obscurity among their fellow science peers due to their belief in a supernatural God.
The pre-requisite for scientific discovery has nothing to do with whether or not the candidate has an education in some type of relevant science. It is that you must be atheistic and believe that all manner of existence in this universe developed over time, not through a designer.
As for Theologians… God did not write his book only for the spiritual elite to understand. It is well known and documented Jesus Christ witnessed to the common man. He left his word with the common man. Imagine if it had been left with the Pharaoh’s (The well educated ‘theologians’ of their day).
I am in my second year of a three year Theology degree. This doesn’t qualify me to be a voice above the modern man or woman, who sit at home every night and read the Word of God. I need no Bishop or Pope to explain God’s Word to me, I certainly don’t believe them to have the ordination to forgive me of my unrighteousness sins as long as I repent behind a blind. I don’t care how tall their hats are, that makes them no closer to God than I am.
But I knew all this even before taking my first semester. It’s because I read my Bible. Your statement “leave science to the scientists and theology to the theologians” may very well be relevant when compared to science and discovery, but has no place as far as Theology goes.
God ordained all souls to follow him and believe upon the name of his Son, Jesus Christ. We were commissioned by Christ to spread the gospel to every creature… “Every creature needs a preacher, AMEN!” I didn’t see in the hand book of God where we had to be certified, accredited and institutionalized before we did so. I think the only pre-requisites is to have a pulse, and to be saved. The lost can’t lead the lost to be found.
I think your mistake here is comparing science and theology and assuming they are both of the same concept as far as their foundations. There is no comparison. Science is nothing like Theology, or shouldn’t be anyway. Science based off fact, evidence, proof (normally or supposedly, as it were). Theology, Faith based.
I do agree with you that it would be best for a Nuclear Physicist to discuss nuclear propulsion, rather the local meat cutter down at the Winn Dixie. However, from the theological stand point, the local meat cutter might just be the foremost expert on the entire book of Revelation because he has read and studied it on his own using resources from the library and online and who knows what else for years
Science does need (typically) scientists in their field to defend their facts and findings. The Bible needs no defense from any individual. God made It to where It is capable of standing on Its own, and has done so for over 6,000 years, unproven and unchallenged, in my opinion.
Just food for thought…
God Bless!
Gary Murray
John Roley
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 1:41pm:I have read some pros and cons (no pun intended) concerning Kent Hovind. My main comment would be to those who are judging Kent for things he and Jo are charged with. Having known Kent for almost 24 years he is not a thief, he is not a liar and he would give the shirt off his back to anyone who was willing to work for it. Jo Hovind is a wonderful dedicated wife who is very submissive to her husband and trust his judgements in (I think) all things. They are two of the most wonderful parents who taught their children to follow God’s word by teaching and doing. God is the only true Judge of this earth and if you think Kent is narrow minded wait till Jesus comes back. That isn’t a threat folks that is a promise. For those who are not born again believers the word of God is foolishness as 1 Corinthians says. There will be those who mock and that is a sign of the end times. Love them, pray for them, let God exercise judgement on those who don’t do His will. Kent is a man of strong convictions and willing to take a stand for what he truly believes. Is everything he did right? That is for God to sort out. As a Christian I am told to pray for them. Will you join me?
JR
Elijah
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 3:42pm:Dearest Kent,
Hope is essential. As a Source of Hope, please meditate on this text.
You are NOT a criminal. However, in the eyes of USA law you are.
This Scripture below MUST be your focal Prayer Point and one that you must centrepiece in your Appeal, if there is to be any Hope, remembering that JESUS Christ Himself, John The Baptist, and The Apostle Peter, all started their eternal ministries with the word REPENT….
We all need to Repent, and here is the secret of your own personal repentance, Sent by The Holy Spirit, through yours truly in Pure Love to see you RELEASED and RELEASED urgently…
1 Peter 2
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
The problem is, regardless of your Spiritual Point of view, you did NOT submit yourself to the Ordinance of the USA tax system.
Humble yourself before the Judge next time.
Apologise for being haughty and naughty.
Repay the money owed and plead clemency – TEN YEARS is insane for your crime.
You were given ten years NOT for your crime, but because you BATTLED them, as if they were wrong.
Regardless of your Spiritual Point of view, they were NOT wrong. The tax monies are owed and that is that.
You should never have tried to used that wonderful mind of yours to trick them.
It was fleshly wisdom that fought in the courtroom, not God’s Spiritual Wisdom.
The Wisdom of Christ Saith Thus : “Pay them, reveal thine True Repentant Heart from 1 Peter 2 : 12-14, humble thyself and explain that you were wrong and simply do not deserve 10 years, rather time served, unless The Father Decrees that you abide in jail for Evangelical purposes only.”
Any Appeal you may be planning must centre only on the ten years. “The crime is not served by the time.”
You must confess you were utterly deceived and wrong to have even tried to fight the case in court, after all, “the deceivableness of riches” and suchlike.
You must apologise to the court system for even trying to fight the case in the first place.
Do all under Covenant of 1 Peter 2 : 12-14 and abandon any ideas of fighting them on their own turf, you do NOT have a prayer in that regard because indeed you were guilty.
However, your guilt does NOT warrant 10 years, only a Tithe of Ten.
Remember, you are not fighting Hitler’s regime or Communist China, or any Islamic radical Sharia Beast. The USA was founded on The Holy Bible.
Let your lawyer read this and if he disagrees, sack him.
Lawyers, lawyers – Oh yes … AND Doctors, doctors, O woe is me….
“The belly for meats and meats for the belly – they shall all be destroyed”
GUARD THY SOUL…
Your lawyer MUST appeal the sentence length ONLY, based on the above…NOTHING else, but thy REPENTANCE will Stand in The Court of Heaven. based on 1 Peter 2 : 12-14
We will continue to Pray for you and PLEASE be Blessed in your untimely sojourn, knowing your name is written in Heaven and the name of each man you bring to their Repentant knees and the waters of Baptism, during your “Time”….
Amen and Amen
With True Love…
Elijah Saatori, (Hong Kong)
[your friend and another fellow evangelist]
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
suijurisetTheojuris
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 3:57pm:I was doing research to prepare an answer on behalf of my family and myself, against false accusations,(most recent court appearance was February 5th) when I typed in Sui Juris, I found a site where your story was posted with links to this blog. We were shocked, we have been sharing your Creation Seminars, and use them as fundamental instruction with our children. We live as best we can by Paul’s admonition: “Be not overcome of evil,but overcome evil with good” (Romans12:21) I believe this trying of your faith will be the greatest opportunity, for all of you at CSE especially Kent, as the confines of prison may offer the greatest spiritual freedom. ” You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free”. The kingdom of God and its counterfeit; the kingdoms of this world, operate by two systems of law; the law of the spirit of life in Christ, or the law of sin and death. Whatever is contrary to the law of God (the law of the spirit of life in Christ)is no law at all its precepts are binding only on those who have not Christ, who are strangers and foreigners to the household of God etc. “Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known “. “Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” I pray this may be of encouragement to you Eric, and your family; especially your Dad I would like to write to him if I may have his address, I believe we are of kindred spirit “yoke-fellows” in Christ. We shall keep all of you in prayer, for a mighty deliverance, and testimony of His faithfulness. Truly in His service in Christ Scott Raymond; Malueg and family
David
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 4:08pm:Samphire
Said this at 10:52am:
“You seem to believe in a deceitful God – one who would deliberately pretend that the stars were older than they were.”
God never pretended the stars were older than they are. It’s actually some scientist who say the stars are much older than 6000yrs.
You either believe in:
1. A perfect God or imperfect scientists.
2. Faith in God or faith in men.
3. Creation or the BIG BANG!
Logic and common sense dictates there is a Creator.
landlphilips
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 4:25pm:Mr. Hovind,
In January of 2006, you met and went out of your way to do a debate for several young men (one being my son)which they set up at University of Riverside, CA. I helped at your table in the back and was amazed on the people that were turned away. Hundreds!! The facility couldn’t hold one more. You asked for nothing in return. Lunch I believe you had with the boys was your payment. I’m sorry the world has such hard hearts. My prayers are for them to have their hearts softened. Your gift from God has shown so many thousands to be BOLD for their faith. One young man, Larry from that group of young men called you on a regular basis to pick your brain. You would be proud today to know Larry has done presentation(s) I have attended at the Bible College he attends.I thougt I was looking at a young YOU. It was amazing. I would like to see your son speak when he comes to California. My son Jason is a youth pastor now and is teaching TRUTH to all who will listen. Though God has different ministries for them, their dream is to someday all come together and carry on what you have begun. God willing. Thank you for being such a servant and allowing God to use you to teach all of us. I can speak for many, many people who all say the same thing: “We have learned more about Gods Word and Truth than from many churches or pastors”.(from your boldness) What Satan means for Bad, God is using for Good.” Satan hates you! Isn’t that AWESOME!! Keep up Gods Work!! Our prayers and fasting will be for you and your family to fulfill God plan in your life. God Bless and protect The Philips Family God has layed it on my heart to pray at 9:00p.m. for the courts ?? to open their hearts to TRUTH every night. All convicted to do the same, join in together as one body in christ.
Marc Biron
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 4:57pm:Sir,
I am not sure if you have adequate time to read or correspond to these messages. I simply wanted to extend my support to you and your family.
I am currently volunteering as a webmaster for a new online ministry, and I took the liberty of adding your ministry’s web link to our site. I figured such a resource should be advertised.
Aside from being a creationism enthusiast, (it was the book of Genesis that initially brought me to God…) I am also perusing education in seminary studies. Your ministry played a majority role in the strength of my faith, and with the support of my Fiancé, I am sure we will accomplish many great things in the name of Jesus Christ. I wish to thank you sincerely. I know the weight those words carry may seem minuscule to their actual meaning. I am afraid to contemplate the course of my life without Christ. Sir, you saved my life.
I am not sure why you are in prison. I have heard, of course, about the IRS and their incessant pursuit of your ministry. I fail to see the merit of a 10 year prison sentence. Prison ought to be reserved for those select few members of society that maliciously and willfully hurt or kill other people. It’s simply not a respectable virtue to incarcerate on principles of “money owed.” Whether you are financially liable in the 1st place raises a question but since I’m fiscally disabled, I won’t make an attempt to even find out. (It would be like a monkey trying to be human. Hehehe. Get it?…Evolution joke…ok lame…)
I am owed money as well. The person who owed me the money failed to pay me back. I released him of his debt and forgave him. This brings me to my point. (Finally, right?)
I am volunteering to translate your seminars in German subtitles. I speak the language for a reason, now I know why. I’ve been corresponding with Paul Abramson concerning the project. I am excited to start. I feel I owe you the translation, as part of a debt I incurred with you, when you saved my life and my soul through your seminars.
I hope my efforts will pay a fraction of my debt to you, though I must be honest, I don’t think I can ever pay you back for saving me. Perhaps you could forgive the remainder of my debt? Maybe, the IRS would follow the example and return unto us one of the greatest human resources in the field of Creation Science…..ever!
You have my support, you have the support of our up and coming web-ministry, you Sir….are amongst friends…
God Bless you sir.
-Marc Biron-
marc.biron@ellsworth.af.mil
Samphire
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 5:29pm:All you posters may be interested in a Jewish spat going on over at http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Segal.cfm
It seems that there is more than one religion which has its own Kent Hovind.
Samphire
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 6:33pm:GaryMurray
Said this at 1:07pm:
“Question… What happens if you run across a Scientist who also has a degree in Theology?”
Good question, Gary. Actually, I buy his book. This afternoon I ordered “The Dawkins Delusion?” by Alister McGrath. He has a PhD in molecular biophysics and a degree in Theology. His biog is at http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mcgrath/biography.html
There is an interesting cat fight developing over here in England following the publication of Prof.Dawkins’ book “The God Delusion”. Prof.McGrath who is a highly respected theologian as well as an ex-scientist has decided to have a go back at him. The book isn’t out for another week or two and it will be published in America in another month or so. Should be interesting.
“They’re out there, believe it or not. Most of their work is discredited due to their creationist belief debunking their scientific research. Heck, there are scientists who have never taken a theology class in their lives but believe the Bible and have been subject to a life of obscurity among their fellow science peers due to their belief in a supernatural God.”
Sad, isn’t it?
“The pre-requisite for scientific discovery has nothing to do with whether or not the candidate has an education in some type of relevant science. It is that you must be atheistic and believe that all manner of existence in this universe developed over time, not through a designer.”
Neither logical nor true. Try starting with Plato and working through the ancients till you get to Steno. None of them were atheists. Then start again with Newton and work on right through to – well, McGrath will do. Many, many theists of one stripe or another.
“As for Theologians… God did not write his book only for the spiritual elite to understand. It is well known and documented Jesus Christ witnessed to the common man”.
It is only documented in the Bible – not elsewhere (I discount Josephus). St Paul does not appear to have been aware that the man Jesus witnessed to the common man.
“He left his word with the common man. Imagine if it had been left with the Pharaoh’s (The well educated ‘theologians’ of their day).”
Compare what Plato believed and taught and compare it to the Sermon on the Mount. And having been to Egypt I admire the ancient religion; it actually made very good sense. Where do you think the early Christians derived their idea of a sacrificial man/god from?
“I am in my second year of a three year Theology degree. This doesn’t qualify me to be a voice above the modern man or woman, who sit at home every night and read the Word of God. ”
So why are you spending your money on a theology degree? Do you think that your tutors think the same of themselves?
“I think your mistake here is comparing science and theology and assuming they are both of the same concept as far as their foundations.”
No, I don’t. Read on.
“There is no comparison. Science is nothing like Theology, or shouldn’t be anyway. Science based off fact, evidence, proof (normally or supposedly, as it were). Theology, Faith based.”
Exactly – they are two separate entities. Hence my presence on this blog expressing my view that theology should stay away from science. It is the YEC theologians who insist on trying to prove science wrong because it does not agree with their theological prejudices.
“Science does need (typically) scientists in their field to defend their facts and findings. The Bible needs no defense from any individual. God made It to where It is capable of standing on Its own, and has done so for over 6,000 years, unproven and unchallenged, in my opinion.”
See what I mean – you cannot help yourself? Your very last words are to conflate your theology with science.
Kind regards
Samphire.
PS Have a look at the Jewish link I give in an earlier post. Compared to those guys, Gary, we two are like new born babes.
Millerfamily6
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 6:49pm:Sade Tennyson
Said this at 7:34am:
FOR ALL IN THIS BLOG; TALKING ABOUT IRS & INCOME TAX LAWS, I SAW THIS & I THINK THIS COULD BE OF HELP!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&hl=en
(NOTE: this video is a bit long) & I pray the truth will prevail in Jesus name.
NOTE: chris_687 & Miller family…….I guess this is what you refer to………
We as God’s children should pray & be prepared!!!!!
——————————————————————————–
Dear Sade,
Greetings in Jesus holy name! Yes, that video link has been posted here before, so I have seen that:0) I need to watch it again, though; lots of info. to hold onto and as a busy mother of 4 boys, it’s hard to do the studying required. Amen and Amen! to what you state: we should pray for truth and justice to prevail in this land. I believe I saw where you’re in the UK? That nation is probably as far from the Lord as ours is, too, huh? I also pray for truth to prevail. So much deceit in our government, but we’ve brought it upon ourselves, I hate to say; nevertheless, the Lord Almighty can turn it around, if we will but pray and take action as led by His Spirit.
Grace and peace in Jesus’ name to you and yours,
Millerfamily6
Samphire
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 7:06pm:Gary said:
“Several problems with this is first, you’re assuming the distance from the stars and quasars are the same today as they were ‘millions’ of years ago, and there is absolutly no indefinite way to know this.”
Actually, I’m not. We see the galaxies today as they existed millions of years ago when they were somewhat closer than they are now. But we cannot see them as they are now because their light has not reached us yet. Barry Setterfield’s analysis is rubbish and I don’t intend to discuss it. Have a look at http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE411.htm and also search on the TalkOrigins site for Setterfield.
If there has been a small change in c in the very distant past it does not help your case for a YEC. There has been no measurable change in c in the last 6,000 years and we can measure that this is the case on a daily basis. Your argument is somewhat like you saying that because I say my car will do 150 mph but you can show that it can only do 149.99 mph then that proves that it can only do 6 mph. It’s just nonsense however you try to dress it.
And why do you accuse the quasar experimenters of lying? Is that what theologians do in their work? I am sure most scientists would wish to be acclaimed the new Einstein. Proverbs 12:22, The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.
Thanks for the New Scientist link. I am a subscriber so was aware of it when it was first published. The article does not assist YEC.
I am sorry to say that your last three paragraphs are entirely irrational. The history of science is a history of intellectual conflict. You cannot seriously be suggesting that a well-received theory should not be included in a textbook just because last week someone produced an hypothesis that might conflict with it? If that were the present practice, we would have no science textbooks at all. And that is not the way science works.
Grrr!
Samarra
Said this on February 13th, 2007 at 7:37pm:Keep your chin up Kent, we’re praying for you and the Mrs, and for Eric too. God Bless!
dabeas
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 4:03am:Hey Kent,
I was actually watching your seminar when I learned that you had been put in jail. I am not sorry for what your going through although part of me wishes you didn’t have to go through that suffering. I have learned that God puts us exactly where He wants us, so that is why I am not sorry. I can only say thank you for being obedient in all situations no matter how challenging or frustrating things can be. I am praying for you and I am praying for your wife. I know that God will make you look so much more like Jesus that it is astounding. This is why I am not sorry for you because you are going to look more like Jesus than you ever thought possible. I am proud to have you and your wife fighting for whats right. Thank you for being so obedient and working to witness to others in your situations.
On a side note…
How is your wife handling all of this? I am curious because I haven’t heard much about her in all this. I will continue to pray for guidance and wisdom.
Hang in there!
Dustin
in7days
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 4:09am:Dear Ken
As I see it Jesus did not advice your father to ask advice from Glen Stoll. A demon no doubt. But still your father did so. And there you are, or rather your dad, whom I admire for his scientific vision.
A simple prayer to Jesus would have been enough. Now there’s only crying in the chapel. You don’t live in heaven, you live in Florida. And you obey the rules there. Till you live in heaven. Which I hope you will someday.
Deny the Devil, Glen Stoll, admit being ill-adviced, the way Peter was when Jesus called him Satan. Because the deception comes from Satan. Not from Peter, not from your dad.
Your dad is wrong when he claims that he has a new mission, in prison. He is in prison because he believed Satan in financial matter, and wont admit it.
I wish you peace and wisdom.
A friend from The Netherlands.
Seeds
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 8:17am:Think about it… has everyone, who has been before the court system and found guilty or innocent, been judged correctly? Everyone, meaning 100%. Unless there is a mistrial, people on a jury must always have an opinion, and right or wrong, they give a vote, and, in this land, we must abide by it – until it is overturned by a higher power. This is where Christianity comes in… we believe all things are in the powerful Hand of God, and He will use ALL things to achieve His purpose. Whether or not, God, in His infinite wisdom, sees fit to overturn this verdict now, or use it to further His Kingdom in another way, is in His Hand. But this one thing I know, that the judgment of God for all sin was released on Jesus Christ on the cross, so that during this period of time,(the time between the cross and the time of the end), all those who believe in Jesus will never experience that judgment. Believe me, all those of you who believe that God still is judging for sins, if He was, we’d all be dead.
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23
As in Genesis 50:20: Joseph says, “… ye thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good…”, we all await the perfect will of God our Father, whose will WILL be done on earth, as it is in Heaven.
Hold fast, Kent, Jo, and family.
darling
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 8:40am:GORGE said this at 11:57am, Feb13:
“I WROTE NO SUCH THING!!!
I trust this is just a simple reading error on your part.”
Indeed. I apologize.
I should have attributed that to djhouk.
JR Turner said this at 12:04pm Feb13:
“Where is the law that makes one liable for the tax in question?
Have you seen it posted here?”
Oddly enough, yes. I posted it numerous times.
I realize you’re not engaging in discussion and just trolling board, but this serves as a great example of how the dialogue goes:
Show me the law!
Here it is.
Show me the law!
Here it is.
Show me the law!
Here it is.
ad infinitum.
So as you can see, you often hear a person say ‘I’d gladly pay my taxes if only someone would show me the law.’ What that really means is that they’ve been shown the law, or at least have been pointed in the right direction, but have choosen to remain wilfully ignorant.
“The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights have not been repealed.”
Let’s see, the Declaration of Independence was never law, so it can’t be repealed by definition.
The Constitution hasn’t been repealed, but it has been amended.
The Bill of Rights hasn’t been repealed, but it has been amended.
“The Constitution is still to this very day referenced as the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND.”
And we know, from the seminal case of Marbury v. Madison that “t is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.”
No court has held or will hold that the IRS Code is invalid or that the IRS lacks the power to levy or collect income taxes. Even though they have heard all the arguments, many, many times. That, my friends, is all you need to know.
GaryMurray
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 8:58am:Samphire
Said this at 10:52am:
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“God could have also created the stars with their light already billions of light years in all directions.”
-David’s post
Perhaps, but why would he do so? That would make the universe at the moment of creation even bigger than it was at the moment of creation. Hang on, that does not make sense. Quite. -Samphire’s response.
Samphire,
You’re asking a type of ‘loaded’ question for the Christians. You are asking us to tell you why God did something. The Bible isn’t clear why God even created the universe. Allow me to give you some scripture, even though you don’t necessarily coincide with it, you’ll understand why this type of answer, we can’t give…
Bible tells us in Psalms 139:6
“Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.”
This is a Psalm of David explaining that the ways of God are too complex for a simple human mind to comprehend.
The Bible also tells us in Isaiah 55:8
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.”
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
I believe what he is saying in these verses is simple… He’s God, we’re man, creation wasn’t meant to understand the Creator.
I’ll go one step further in my exlpanation. If we assume we can answer all man’s questions about God, why he is, who he is, why he did, and why he did not, then he is not God. If we assume this aspect to be true, we as man, claim ourselves to be God, because we claim we fully understand he who is omnipotent. If we understand he who is omnipotent, then we, ourselves, become omnipotent, making man, God.
Still with me? Anyone see a trend here?
It is in our nature to believe that we are in control of our lives (this is the free will nature that God has placed in us as we are made in his image, thus includes the free will nature) that nature was given to us by God when he claimed that man would have dominion upon the earth in Genesis 1, that control leads to the coveting of power, once absolute power is attanied, absolute power corrupts and blah, blah, blah absolute power corrupts absolutly. You say, how stereotypical! Yes, but sometimes truth hurts.
We as man would be fools to think that we could understand and explain any act of God, regardless what it is. We were not placed here to explain God, certainly we were not placed here to exlpain Him away. We are put here to serve God, you have a choice. That’s that free will nature of God that allows you to either obey, or disobey him, but that is as far as it can go. To explain God is to say we are as God and make us equivelant to the Father of all lies, Lucifer, who fell because he thought he was equal to the Most High. Things didn’t work out too well for that guy, nor would it for anyone else who falls into this way of thinking.
So, in short. No Christian would ever answer a question about God unless the answer can be found in the Word of God. If the answer isn’t there, it isn’t that God doesn’t have the answer, it’s because God didn’t feel it necessary for us to have the answer.
(The good news to all believers who are saved by the precious blood of Christ… We’ll talk it over in the by and by, AMEN! There is coming a day, when all those questions will be answered, gets my loins just tingling thinking about that other side, GLORY TO GOD!!)
NOTE: Verse 10 of this chapter gives strong evidence that the Bible is scientifically accurate as it pertains to vegetation life and its hydration requirements. Interesting reading for scoffers who believe the Bible to be scientifically inaccurate. What’s even more interesting is Isaiah covers events that took place over a 62 year period from 760-698 BC. Over 2,700 years ago, its just fascinating to me that God was telling us exactly how the science of plant hydration from the atmoshpere worked, while science in those days were still looking for evidence of a flat earth, rather than a round earth. Of course he didn’t go into technical details of the science, but there again, God’s Word was not written to confuse, but to be understood.
Samphire
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 10:45am:Hi Gary
So under your theology we are not entitled to muse over why God would set out to deceive us. You sound like the Taleban. All I was doing was pointing out to David the possible physical consequences of his cosmology. We have enough problems with the Big Bang without God building walls around the stars.
Well, I don’t know about you, Gary, but I don’t live in a cave anymore or drive a buffalo cart. As time moves on mankind use its various senses including reason to discover things and as we are able to leave records of our findings to later generations so the body of knowledge is built up. As Bernard of Chartres first said “we are like dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, so that we can see more than they, and things at a greater distance, not by virtue of any sharpness on sight on our part, or any physical distinction, but because we are carried high and raised up by their giant size.”.
The heavens are not some theological construct. They are as much part of the physical universe as is the Earth and Moon and to some extent are capable of measurement and analysis if only we had the tools – so stop being so painfully and piously ‘umble. If you had been a Pilgrim you would still be eating ice cream in a Dartmouth cafe instead of being on the Mayflower bravely sailing over the horizon to a land where the hand of man had never set foot (apart, that is, from the various tribes of Indians who had come over from Asia at various earlier times and Columbus and the Vikings, of course).
We might not get all the way to discovering the beginning of time but we will have an enjoyable and exciting journey on the way and perhaps, if there is such a thing as a personal God, it is what He would want us to do. Who are you to say contrariwise? . Perhaps we will discover our universe is part of a fractal multi-verse in which case it may never have had a beginning but just breaks up into finer and finer miniverses like the shape of the shoreline of some Norwegian fiord. If that did prove to be the case where would that leave your theology? No need to answer that one.
“So, in short. No Christian would ever answer a question about God unless the answer can be found in the Word of God. If the answer isn’t there, it isn’t that God doesn’t have the answer, it’s because God didn’t feel it necessary for us to have the answer. ”
So why do you pray to him?
“(The good news to all believers who are saved by the precious blood of Christ… We’ll talk it over in the by and by, AMEN! There is coming a day, when all those questions will be answered, gets my loins just tingling thinking about that other side, GLORY TO GOD!!)”
OK, OK, go and have a cold shower but, in the sweet by and by, don’t forget to ask about the walls around the stars and why there are evidences of supernovas that didn’t happen?
“NOTE: Verse 10 of this chapter gives strong evidence that the Bible is scientifically accurate as it pertains to vegetation life and its hydration requirements. Interesting reading for scoffers who believe the Bible to be scientifically inaccurate. What’s even more interesting is Isaiah covers events that took place over a 62 year period from 760-698 BC. Over 2,700 years ago, its just fascinating to me that God was telling us exactly how the science of plant hydration from the atmoshpere worked, while science in those days were still looking for evidence of a flat earth, rather than a round earth. Of course he didn’t go into technical details of the science, but there again, God’s Word was not written to confuse, but to be understood.”
Actually, you have given a good example of where the Bible has actually got its science wrong. Contrary to what the verse says the rainwater does return to “heaven” via transpiration from the plants and evaporation from the ground, seas, rivers and lakes. But, of course, the guys who wrote Isaiah did not know that. It took scientists to find it out.
I thought that I would Google Earth Israel to see if they have any PolyTunnels which take advantage of this new knowledge. I couldn’t find any so perhaps they are still reading from the original manual. But I did find an interesting architectural site in the desert at 31 07 37.27N 34 39 19.11E. You don’t know what it is, do you? It’s a few miles south west of Beersheba.
Kind regards
Samphire
GaryMurray
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 11:17am:Oh boy, here we go Samphire, page 1 of 5
The Bible was never written to be a science book. The reasons theologians argue science of today with facts from the Bible is because science is considered one tool (not all of science, but some) to discredit the Bible and confuse believers and shake their faith. Thus, theologians challenge science with science and Bible in an effort to make know that the Bible, though not a science textbook was written years prior to scientific discoveries but listed references and related passages which support those modern day discoveries.
In other words, some of what science has proved today, or in the past few centuries, the Bible already had listed as being evident. I can give you these passages of scripture if you like, I just posted one this morning in relation to plant life and the hydration process. Keep in mind that the Bible is a book of history and guidance in the spiritual life of a Christian, not a science text book, so we’re not going to see laboratory experiments, but it explains, in simple terms, how some things work, and how some things are.
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Gary’s Quote…
“The pre-requisite for scientific discovery has nothing to do with whether or not the candidate has an education in some type of relevant science. It is that you must be atheistic and believe that all manner of existence in this universe developed over time, not through a designer.”
Samphire’s response…
Neither logical nor true. Try starting with Plato and working through the ancients till you get to Steno. None of them were atheists. Then start again with Newton and work on right through to – well, McGrath will do. Many, many theists of one stripe or another.
I apologize, I didn’t specify what tense I was referring to as it pertains to the candidates… I am speaking of science of today, certainly I am referring to the students of the ‘science’ of evolution. You are right, Plato, like many past scientists believed in ‘a’ God, not necessarily the one I believe, but a God nonetheless. I am speaking of present day science candidates. Many theistic scientists and doctors who are well-educated students of their field are discriminated against in an effort to debunk their work. Of course, any theistic scientist who develops a theory and evidence to disprove any part of evolution surely come under fire because of the belief in a supernatural God. They are quickly labeled a creationist with an alternate agenda. Science isn’t politics and should be played in that manner. It is very sad that these people who have just as equal understanding and experience in their field of science can be so easily discredited because of their religious faith. There again, it doesn’t surprise me as it just proves that those doing the discrediting feel so threatened by the evidence of a designer rather than a rock farting in soup, that they feel the need to eliminate the source. Sounds a lot like conviction to me.
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Gary’s Post…
“As for Theologians… God did not write his book only for the spiritual elite to understand. It is well known and documented Jesus Christ witnessed to the common man”.
Sampihre’s response…
It is only documented in the Bible – not elsewhere (I discount Josephus). St Paul does not appear to have been aware that the man Jesus witnessed to the common man.
I don’t see where St. Paul indicated Jesus witnessed only to the Pharoah’s either, but the good news is we’re not tied down only by what the books Paul wrote. Paul never walked with Jesus Christ as his disciples did. This doesn’t discredit Paul or his teachings in ANY way. He was considered the greatest Preacher ever to teach the Gospel (Bible tells us Paul also witnessed to the common man, especially the many times he was held in bondage).
The 4 Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) are filled with the life of Christ and the people he witnessed to.
Mark 12:35-37
35 “AND JESUS ANSWERED AND SAID, WHILE HE TAUGHT IN THE TEMPLE, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?”
36 “For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.”
37 “David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he his son? And the COMMON PEOPLE heard him gladly.”
In the above scripture alone, Christ is teaching in the temple to the ‘common people’ who ‘heard him gladly’. This would be the first tip that Christ did witness to the common man. Secondly, the many parables Christ speaks in all the Gospels,, explain that he was speaking to the common people as commoners were typically those who were rich in poverty and poor in education. Thus, Christ spoke to them in parables so that they might understand the meaning behind his teachings. Proof of a wonderful and understanding, all loving (Praise God) Saviour. I can give you a plethora of examples of scripture where the common man are being witnessed to. Bible tells us we should go take the Gospel out to the Highways AND the Hedges. That means everywhere, both poor and rich, both educated and uneducatd.
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Gary’s post…
“He left his word with the common man. Imagine if it had been left with the Pharaoh’s (The well educated ‘theologians’ of their day).”
Samphire’s reply…
Compare what Plato believed and taught and compare it to the Sermon on the Mount. And having been to Egypt I admire the ancient religion; it actually made very good sense. Where do you think the early Christians derived their idea of a sacrificial man/god from?
Your reply is an odd one to my statement, but I have no problem wrestling this lion. Folks, this is just a great common example of Satan using alternative religions through time to upset the original ideas. This tactic has been used by many in the past and is easy to misunderstand, fortunatly it’s just a facade used to misinterpret Christianity. (Isn’t it interesting how all things are used to disprove only Christianity… Odd how that works, eh? Almost like there is a supernatural force of evil guiding that…)
I believe the ‘early Christians’ derived this idea from the Word of God. The ancient scrolls found 6,000 years ago which we today call the Bible. I believe the Bible is the perfect, inspired Word of the Living God. I believe it to be the truth, and there is nothing in the Bible that I don’t believe. Anyway, on to my reply to your statement…
What you’re doing here is putting the horse behind the cart. Good method that you might have been taught or even perhaps read somewhere that the Christian religion spawned from a different ancient events, actually it is the other way around. Other religions have spawned from Christianity. Let me explain…
Organized false religion began with Nimrod, who constructed the Tower of Babel (Gen 10). The purpose of the Tower was to ‘reach to heaven’, not merely physically, but astrologically or spiritually, for the purpose of worshipping the heavens, the sun, moon and stars. Nimrod was the first of the god-kings, who demanded not only loyalty as king, but also worship as a god.
Upon his deadh, Semerimus his queen, brazenly declared that he had ascended as the sun god. She then claimed that he had sent a sun beam down to impregnate her with miraculously born son, Tammuz, who was the reincarnation of his father. Tammuz was declared to be the Savior promised by God to Eve (Gen 3:15). Semerimus demanded worship for herself and her son as the mother goddess and teh god child. Tammuz came to be worshipped as the sun and moon god and Semerimus came to be worshiped as Mother Earth and the Queen of Heaven (Ezekial 8:14, Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-19)
This mother-child, fertility cult was judged by God with the confusion of languages at Babel. With the new languages, Semerimus and Tammuz were now known by many names and Satan’s harlot church spread around the world.
- Asteroth and Tammuz – Babylon
- Aphrodite and Eros – Greece
- Isis and Osiris or Horus or Re – Egypt
- Venus and Cupid – Rome, venus and Jupiter in old Rome and Sumaria
- Mother Shing Moo and her Child – China
- Indrani or Devaki or Mother India and Chrishna (Hara Krishna) – India
- Heartha and her child – Germany
- Baal and Astaroth – Phonecians
- Virgo Patitura, Mother of god – Druids
- Diana – Ephesus
- Tammuz was also known as Zeus of the Greeks, Jove of the English, and Dagon of the Phillistines
- Many, many other names could be included, such as Allah, the false god of Islam (I’ll probably be killed for posting that) who was originally the Moon god of Mohommed’s tribe (The reason for the crescent Moon on mosques and flags today).
- Today, the mother goddess is worshipped in the New Age momvement as Mother Earth. This literal worship of nature and the Earth is the real motive behind much of the extremist environmentalist.
Boy, now there’s an ear full! You see, all these religions spawned from one source. It happened at the tower of Babel, where Babylon turned their backs on God and began (uh oh, here it is again) ‘doing what was right in their own eyes’. Now you don’t have to go to the Bible for this type of historical and ancient data, you can go to the libraries and pull history of each of these heresies. It might fascinate you to know that the ‘bread trail’ of these beginnings leads back to the tower of Babel. Most specifically list either Tammuz or Nimrod as prophets or figureheads and the idea of reaching spiritual enlightenment in heaven. You see, the Babylons came up with their own ideas of how to worship, what to worship and what to believe by their own eyes. Once man (Nimrod) claimed that he was God, that made man the only powerful being in the universe, causing everyone to come up with their own ideas, fortunatly for the Babylonians God gave them Ezekial, unfortunatley the Babylonians didn’t listen to him either. If you’re curious about what happened, The books of Ezekial and Daniel are a might good read.
Thanks Nimrod! Ever wonder where we get the old cliché “He’s such a nimrod” well, there ya go…
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Gary’s post…
“I am in my second year of a three year Theology degree. This doesn’t qualify me to be a voice above the modern man or woman, who sit at home every night and read the Word of God. ”
Samphire’s resopnse…
So why are you spending your money on a theology degree? Do you think that your tutors think the same of themselves?
The question is a silly attempt to irrationally alter the idea that man needs not teach other man contents of the Bible because none of us are the foremost authority on the Bible.
I am not spending money on a degree. That’s your first assumption, which quickly leads you to draw a conclusion that I am in it for something other than study. I think that my professor, who is also a preacher, is very knowledgeable about the Bible and its contents. I believe the course of studies, the textbooks and the materials are sound. It is an accredited course of study, but this makes no difference to me.
There is an old saying… “None of us are as smart as all of us.” So the question remains, how can we ever be? By sharing our knowledge with each other. I am taking the college course, not for the diploma, but for the material and study. I am learning more about the Bible (adjacent from my individual study in the Bible) to learn historical facts and interesting tidbits of historical recordings that support the scripture in the Bible. The other reason I am taking the course is because God told me to. First of all, no he didn’t say ‘Hey, Gary… Go take that course”. But he did make it available to me, I felt that he led me to begin the class and thus I joined. That is the individual conviction and guidance of the Holy Spirit, and individual relationship with God and one of his children. God did, however, tell all his children in his Word that we should study…
2 Timothy 2:15
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth”.
Proverbs 18:15
“The heart of the pudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge”
Proverbs 1:5
“A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of u nderstanding shall attain unto wise counsels:”
Read Proverbs 2:3-6 (KJV Only please)
Proverbs 2:10-12
10 “When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;”
11 “Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee;”
12 “To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh FROWARD things;”
I can really go on and on and give you scripture after scripture as to why I study, and why I went to seminary. It is simple, it is what God commands us to do and it is what strengthens your faith and understanding against… Honestly, people like you, Samphire, no offense.
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Samphires response…
Exactly – they are two separate entities. Hence my presence on this blog expressing my view that theology should stay away from science. It is the YEC theologians who insist on trying to prove science wrong because it does not agree with their theological prejudices.
Actually, your original view was to leave “Science to the scientists, and Theology to the theologians”. But that’s not relevant. Here is the problem that I think you’re missing, Samphire. Before the object of evolution, creation was the accepted method, had been for hundreds of years.
Suddenly, evolution leaps onto the existence platform, claims scientifically that we evolved rather than created. I may be using the statement out of context and should probably stick with the word evolution rather than science in an effort not to confuse anyone.
Evolution is not Science, just because science is used to provide evidence for evolution anymore than the Hubbell Telescope is part of a star, because we use the Hubbell for evidence to prove something is there we can’t see with the naked eye.
But evolution and evolutionists claim that evolution is scientific. Well, the problem with this statement is science is FACT, PROOF and TRUTH. Evolution is a theory, with some established evidence of its legitimacy, but nothing conclusive because none of it has been observed, what little has been observed doesn’t fully prove the theory of evolution, furthermore, time and time again evidence used to support evolution has been tested with alternate results from one lab or facilities to another. Much like creation, evolution is an idea that must be held upon faith because lets face it, the stars and rocks can’t talk and tell us how old they are and no one is millions of years old, therefore there is an element of faith that is involved with this theory. The only difference in the two, Religion and Evolution, is that we have ancient scripture and historical documents from eyewitnesses which support and prove religion to be true, as well as historical artifacts and geological evidence. Uh oh, I used two forms of science to support creation… give me a break….
Evolution and Creation two great religions, neither of which are scientific, but both of which have scientific evidence that support the other. The only difference is one is being taught in high school SCIENCE textbooks, the other isnt. That’s a problem, Samphire. That’s hypocritical, Samphire, and you support this?
Sorry for the long posts folks, I just have a lot to say, a lot of references and darn it if I just still think I’m right!
Still love and appreciate you, Samphire and I appreciate you keeping comments in a debatable fashion, its amazing how often blog debates turn into an insulting match.
God Bless!
Gary
GORGE
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 11:19am:I was going to just stick to the Gospel message of Christ when replying to Sanballat the Horonite, and Tobiah the servant, the Ammonite, and Geshem the Arabian,but I feel just one more reply wont hurt.
Samphire you said
“Leave science to the scientists and the theology to the Theologians”
I surpose in one sence a valid point as that is what they are trained to do.
Though there seems an ugly side to human nature in that it does not like it when it gets things wrong says nothing and even lies to protect its religion sorry theory.
So in another and more important way it is a wise thing to let people explore especaly when a cover up is discoverd.
If it were not for Creation science many peolpe (including myself as a youth )would still be in igronence beliveing the many lies in the school text books.I grew up beliveing in stuff that was dis credited by the relavent bodies years ago,ie embreo show we have fish as ancestors, and yet nothing was done by the leading scienctist.I would say kh has blown the lid of the macro-evolution and you guys know it.
Do you belive in this kind of totalarism for other profesions too,such as polatics,should no one speak out about the politics of the day? or historians,can no one disagree with their findings ect.
There a passage in Luke that says “the common man received his(Jesus) word gladly” The trained theologions of teh day on the whole for many reasons did not
Dear Creation science,
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones
God Bless you all and thank you for all the hard work you do.
Brother Daniel
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 12:47pm:O God of my Exodus,
Great was the joy of Israel’s sons,when egypt died upon the shore, Far greater the joywhen the Redeemer’s enemy lay crushedin the dust. Jesus strides forth as the victor, conqueror of death, hell, and all opposing might; he bursts the bands of death, tramples the powers of darkness down, and lives for ever. He, my gracious surety, apprehended for payment of my debt, comes forth from the prison house of the grave free, and triumphant over sin, Satan, and death. Show me herein the proof that his vicarious offering is accepted,that the claims of justice are satisfied,that the devil’s sceptre is shivered, that his wrongful throne is levelled. Give me the assurance that in Christ I died, in him I rose, in his life I live, in his victory I triumph, in his ascension I shall be glorified. Adorable Redeemer, thou who was lifted up upon a cross art ascended to higher heaven. Thou, who as Man of sorrows was crowned with thorns, art now as Lord of life wreathed with glory. Once, no shame more deep than thine, no agony more bitter, no death more cruel. Now, no exaltation more high, no life more glorious, no advocate more effective. Thou art in the triumph car leading captive thine enemies behind thee. What more could be done than thou hast done! Thy death is my life, thy resurrection my peace, the ascension my hope, thy prayers my comfort. ( Author unknown)
( Valley of Vision, a collection of Puritan prayers)
Martybaby
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 2:19pm:Brother Kent: Just accept my prayers and support. This thing will be over before you know it and there is life after the joint. Been there and done that. The end result is one of gratitude and blessing and rejoicing. Bless you, brother Kent. Marty
JohnLake
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 2:20pm:GaryMurray
Said this at 8:58am:
NOTE: Verse 10 of this chapter gives strong evidence that the Bible is scientifically accurate as it pertains to vegetation life and its hydration requirements. Interesting reading for scoffers who believe the Bible to be scientifically inaccurate. What’s even more interesting is Isaiah covers events that took place over a 62 year period from 760-698 BC. Over 2,700 years ago, its just fascinating to me that God was telling us exactly how the science of plant hydration from the atmoshpere worked, while science in those days were still looking for evidence of a flat earth, rather than a round earth. Of course he didn’t go into technical details of the science, but there again, God’s Word was not written to confuse, but to be understood.
Gary,
I looked up verse 10 and while a portion of the verse does pertain to hydration of vegetation,(true, it does not go into details of water absorption by the plants through osmosis) part of the passage is completely inaccurate.
From KJV Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
“returneth not thither” I believe that it is a basic understanding of the hydrological cycle (the water cycle) that the rain/snow that falls from the sky, collects in various forms (lakes, oceans, etc) and then evaporates and returns to the atmosphere to become clouds and rain again. So, the water does returneth thither.
From NIV Isaiah 55:10
As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater
“and do not return to it without watering the earth” It is a common occurrence for rain to be falling (as evidenced by radar), but evaporating back into the atmosphere before reaching the ground. Also, hail is formed by rain being circulated (falling then rising) many times within a storm cloud before falling to the ground as ice. So , water does return to it without watering the earth.
By the way, Aristotle (384-322 BC) observed evidence that the earth was round and Eratosthenes (276 BC – 194 BC) calculated the earth’s circumference. Many others such as astronomer Ptolemy (90–168 AD), Martianus Capella and Macrobius describe the earth as round. The idea for a flat earth were most likely based on Mesopotamian & Babylonian beliefs and mythology and then proliferated by the writers and believers of the Bible. To me, that does not equate to “science in those days looking for evidence of a flat earth”.
JohnLake
GaryMurray
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 3:36pm:Samphire
Said this at 7:06pm:
“Actually, I’m not. We see the galaxies today as they existed millions of years ago when they were somewhat closer than they are now. But we cannot see them as they are now because their light has not reached us yet. Barry Setterfield’s analysis is rubbish and I don’t intend to discuss it. Have a look at http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE411.htm and also search on the TalkOrigins site for Setterfield.”
Setterfield’s analysis is rubbish? Wow, ok, I’ll give you that if it’ll appease. Just because the scientific community has a bone to pick with Setterfield, it has nothing to do with the other two articles I posted which question light as being a constant.
I listed these articles…
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/10/991005114024.htm
Note: This story has been adapted from a news release issued by University Of Toronto.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/constant_changing_010815.htmlResearchers at Cambridge University, the Carnegie Observatories and the University of California at San Diego also worked on the study. The observations were made using the Keck Telescope in Hawaii.
Both of these are reputable researchers from reputable universities. If you like I can list probably 10 or 20 more links to articles from other researchers, labs and universities which have deducted a similar conclusion that their work has uncovered evidence that light isn’t a constant.
The point I was trying to make, Samphire, is that for every pro there is a con. There are scientific studies that say there is evidence that light is constant, then there is another that say there is evidence it isn’t. That makes this a controversial subject, and certainly does not make it fact or truth, which are two important elemental requirements to be named science, per Webster’s Dictionary.
So, since it cannot be concluded, or agreed upon, or substantiated that the speed of light is indeed a constant by the scientific community, it should NOT be listed in a science textbook we teach to our children. You probably still haven’t grasped the concept I am trying to edify, because you’re still stuck on believing that which isn’t conclusive yet. I will try to elaborate in a manner where everyone will understand why it should be omitted from a science textbook.
Science:
1. In a general sense, knowledge, or certain knowledge; the comprehension or understanding of truth or facts by the mind. –Webster’s 1828 Dictionary
By the above diction, it has to be assumed that a book of Science would only obtain elements and knowledge of TRUTH and FACTS. Therefore anything that isn’t proven to be a TRUTH or FACT should be omitted from said topic. And certainly not be used as material for edification in a non-fiction book teaching facts and truths of science.
For all other theories which are controversial in the scientific community, such as evolution and constancy of light and radiometric dating, there is a special section for these books it is known as the FICTION section. Once these theories are conclusive, then they can be reunited with the Science textbooks, but not until then.
I’m sure this would be considered an insult to put these types of scientific theories in the non-fiction category… well, tough. These types of theories should be well documented in articles and scientific journals as theories in progress, perhaps even a cameo in a Science Textbook explaining “these theories are among many which have not yet been conclusively proven, but are still in progress”, but that is as far as it should be allowed. It should in NO way be listed and taught at the level of legitimacy it is being taught to our kids today. Example… EVERY public school bus kid I pick up on Wednesday night all had the same answer to my question… “Kids, about how old are the dinosaurs?” answer: “A Million Years Old!”
This lie or untruth (for those who are very sensitive about that ‘lie’ word) has been drilled into our kid’s heads by the books they are taught in school as being fact, when in fact it isn’t! That’s despicable, Samphire, I don’t know what it is like overseas but that causes a bit of a problem in the makeup of American rights and civil liberties.
—————————————————–
Samphire’s post…
“If there has been a small change in c in the very distant past it does not help your case for a YEC.”
I don’t think we ever claimed it to be a victory for creationists, it just causes (as it we’ve seen time and time again) a cripple for the evolutionary theories. As I have said, the fact that light is or is not a constant still does not prove an age old universe, I know you don’t understand that because I have already posted why I believe this and you still continue to try to refute that the constancy of light is relevant.
There is no way to prove that what we see today is what was millions of years ago just based off the assumption that light has been constant or has not been constant over the past few thousand years.
——————————————————
Sampihre’s post…
“And why do you accuse the quasar experimenters of lying? Is that what theologians do in their work? I am sure most scientists would wish to be acclaimed the new Einstein. Proverbs 12:22, The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.”
After reviewing my post I don’t recall where I claimed anyone lied, I did make mention that I felt in some instances of research when grant money is given based off study and outcome that cover-ups occur. I did not claim they did so, I did say it is possible. Either way my cover-up statement is not relevant in the argument that light is or is not a constant and truthfully isn’t something that should have been addressed. I understand why it was, trapping a man in his own ‘cage’ so-to-speak is a great method of misdirection, but his downfall must be relevant to the topic of debate.
———————————————————
Samphire’s post…
Thanks for the New Scientist link. I am a subscriber so was aware of it when it was first published. The article does not assist YEC.
See my responce to your second post above…
———————————————————-
Samphire’s post…
I am sorry to say that your last three paragraphs are entirely irrational. The history of science is a history of intellectual conflict. You cannot seriously be suggesting that a well-received theory should not be included in a textbook just because last week someone produced an hypothesis that might conflict with it? If that were the present practice, we would have no science textbooks at all. And that is not the way science works.
Speak of irrational? We know for sure that plants require photosynthesis in order to live. Fascinating scientific data can be proven, observed and is truth and fact! One for the science book.
We are certain and there is no controversy that whales are mammals and live under water, yet humans are mammals and live above ground. Wonderful chapters can be drawn from these observable and proven sciences.
Fact! Mixing certain chemicals on the periodic chart of elements can cause certain fascinating chemical reactions! Each chemical has its own makeup based off of what type of elements it contains. Perfect for science textbooks! Observable, proven and non-controversial!
The list can go on and on of wonderful proven observable facts that make up the dictionary term of Science. These FACTS are welcome in a science textbooks, let’s teach those kids the FACTS! We’ll even throw in a cameo of a hypothesis that isn’t proven but is causing excitement in the scientific world, such as the constancy of light! But until it is proven conclusive… we really don’t want our kids believing it is, right?
I don’t wanna lie to my kids, Samphire. Not sure if you have any yourself, but you shouldn’t wanna lie to them too. A lie is anything that is not the truth. Well, evolution (or an old-aged universe) is not proven conclusively truth, nor is creationism proven conclusively truth, the only difference is one is published and taught in a Science Textbook which is ONLY supposed to hold Facts and Truth, the other isn’t. Can you guess which one? Well if it was Creationism I wouldn’t be here posting right now.
I don’t want to lie to my kids and I don’t want my kids lied to and anything that isn’t the truth is a lie. You might say that the textbooks don’t say they’re conclusive facts, just experiments that seem to align with other experiments, but that isn’t what the text books say. They drill it into these kids as if it were the truth, don’t believe me, see my above post in relation to asking public school kids how old dinosaurs are. No proof of that! Get that outta there!
That IS how Science is supposed to work, but you’re right… That’s NOT how science works.
————————————————————
Samphires post…
Grrr!
Calm down kitty, we got a long way to go…
Man, my responses are ALWAYS longer than his post.
Ken
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 5:26pm:Hmm…
After reading all the attacks and encouragements I have to chuckle.
Through all that I have seen and experienced and learned in the world on many sides of life, I have to say, “As for me and my house we will serve the Lord”
I owe no apologies to anyone and my children have been taught to question everything someone tells them, not to take it at face value or accept people’s words as absolute truth.
I will again thank the Hovinds for their ministry.
Ken
Samphire
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 5:36pm:Hi, Gorge,
I do not believe for one moment that you grew up as you claim believing that a human embryo develops in such a way that it shows you, Gorge, have a fish for an ancestor. You could only have got that idea from watching one of KH’s videos. Please be honest.
It is true that all (underlined) vertebrates (that includes fish) undergo a similar embryonic development but Haeckel’s idea expressed as “Ontogeny recapitulates Phylogeny,” was quickly discarded when it was realised that evolution is not an effect that is somehow tacked on to an organism but is something which happens within the genome. In other words, evolution is expressed throughout an organism’s existence from the first moment that the egg starts to develop. Evolution can affect all phases of development, removing developmental steps as well as adding them and therefore embryology is not a strict replay of ancestry. Nonetheless, Gorge, many of the stages that embryos pass through can indeed be understood as remnants of their evolutionary past.
You say: “I grew up beliveing in stuff that was dis credited by the relavent bodies years ago.’ Why? Why did you not believe what the relevant bodies were teaching rather than believing something that was being taught by other bodies which were without any expertise in the subject? It doesn’t make sense.
Please gives us an accurate account of your educational history rather than the make believe you have stated in your last post.
twinreverb
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 6:15pm:While I think the IRS is doing a lot of corrupt stuff, the method of overcoming this situation seems simple to me: plead guilty and try to work out a deal to pay the IRS. We were never told to argue with the government or split hairs with them in trial. In fact, they know that in a trial they can win. We are told to obey government and pay taxes (romans 13) and that Jesus paid taxes (matthew 17:24-26), in fact, it was a miracle. Hovind should start praying for money to pay them (is God not rich enough to pay the IRS?).
558_thoughts
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 6:47pm:On Feb 8, I submitted a rather long comment to this blog, and it has not appeared on the list of comments even though many posts after that date do appear. Based on the content of my comment, I find it very interesting (though I am not really shocked) that it was blocked and not posted. It was a very important post, since it contained explanations for some things in my earlier Feb 6 comment. I am only curious, what did you find in it that was so objectionable that you didn’t even post it? I am pretty sure it did not contain any cuss words, and the tone, although perhaps not too friendly, was far more polite than innumerable other comments that you have posted here. It must have been the content. What would be wrong with posting what I wrote for these bloggers to see? I know what it is, of course. It’s dangerous, and people might believe it if you post it. Exactly like creation-supporting material in textbooks is dangerous, and it must be removed or the kids might believe it. If you don’t agree with my position (as I’m sure you don’t) you should post my comment with your refutation, rather than keep it secret from everyone. As it is, you are not only keeping honest questions away from the possibility of being seen, but you are leaving lots of bloggers here hanging, since my second post was closely tied to my first one. It explained (for those who may be wondering) why I am suddenly using modern English. The blogger “samuel” is probably wondering why he did not get the courtesy of a response. He did, it’s just that someone else did not have the courtesy to post it. If you do not think my comment was dangerous, you have no motive for witholding it. Die-hard evolutionists who hate Dr. Hovind’s guts get their comments posted, but someone who just politely gives a few refutations to an unreasonable position of his is blocked. I am fairly sure you will block this one too, but this is directed at whoever is responsible for posting the comments, so it will reach its intended audience. I have only one question for you: Why do you attack evolutionists who hide the truth from people when you do it yourself?
Jason
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 6:55pm:Dear Samphire,
About the apology you have taken from me (before I gave it), I believe you misinterpreted my sentiment. I will agree you never said that God didn’t exist for that you have my humble apologies, however you did say that God wasn’t a materialistic cause. Such a belief would nullify his existence as God, ergo for God to exist he has to be God with a materialistic cause otherwise he wouldn’t be God. Never the less you can have the apology, I can’t be bothered to be so pedantic as to argue with you over it.
Over this discourse you have conveyed to me that:
You do have a system of belief, trusting in faith that you, or those who’s study you have put your faith in are right (I.e. evolution, from the big bang to the present day).
Quote
You probably need not only a PhD in physics, maths or cosmology but much more too to understand the Big Bang Theory. Personally, among much else, I cannot comprehend the Inflationary hypothesis which is a necessary paradigm in the currently generally accepted synthesis.
You admit that there is not yet a full, clear & coherent answer to your belief, but you hope for the future that one day an understanding might be gained.
Quote
cosmologists know more than anybody that there are great problems with the theory – although the best scientific explanation currently available to account for the observations it is still only a theory – and they work to solve those problems. Perhaps they never will
Regardless of the fact that you haven’t yet got the full answer (or answers) that you are hoping for, you hold onto your beliefs and assert them as though they are true above and beyond the beliefs of those around you.
Quote
As Richard Dawkins writes in the correspondence page of today’s London Times “…I never tire of how much we don’t know. ‘The God Delusion’ ends on just such a theme. Where do the laws of physics come from? How did the universe begin? Scientists are working on these deep problems, honestly and patiently. Eventually they may be solved. Or they may be insoluble. We don’t know.”
You come across as being evangelical in your passion & belief that you are right.
Quote
An increasing number of Christians can accept the idea of an ancient Universe. What is your problem that you cannot do so?
I find apparent contradictions in the things you say (Maybe that’s just my lack of understanding because I don’t have any PHDs
Summary of discourse…
As for your allegation that the biblical story of creation has never been disproved – by which I assume that you mean Young Earth Creationsim – then you are wrong. I have disproved it in these weblogs…
I suggested that you were mistaken in your assertion, you then quoted me, when you wrote this….
Hi Jason,
Your wrote: “Samphire you seem to be 100% convinced that you have proved the bible wrong, (without a PHD?). ”
No, I don’t I say that the Bible is not a scientific treatise and should not be read as such.
I believe through observation of the evidence here, you qualify for the label, “religious fundamentalist”.
You agree with me about Jehovah Witnesses…..
Quote
I agree with you about Jehovah’s Witnesses. They always walk quickly away when I start in. Why?
I suggest that they move away from you because, you are a more of a passionate “religious fundamentalist” than they are.
Either way round I am not ever interested in arguing with people who want to argue, and I feel that this is where this discourse is going.
I don’t feel I have anything to answer for or too, nothing you have brought forward is anything new, nor do I see in you (unfortunately) a heart to search for the truth. It’s time, I think, to close the door. Please don’t be offended if I choose to ignore your future posts addressed to me, (on this subject). I’m not meaning to be rude but I can’t help but believe your intentions are to try and irritate me rather than walk with me in search of the truth.
Darling…
Your response to a much earlier observation of mine
——————————
You seem to want to inform me that to really understand the big bang theory you need to have a PHD in physics or cosmology.
I have no idea where you get that from.
My point is only that you can’t expect a coherent answer on any particular subject from someone who has a degree in an unrelated field.
It doesn’t mean they won’t know the answer. But you takes your chances.
————————————
If you would like to discuss this matter with Samphire, be my guest, I am sure you would like to read the word of one of your own teachers, Richard Dawkins “Scientists are working on these deep problems, honestly and patiently. Eventually they may be solved. Or they may be insoluble. We don’t know.”
It appears by this statement even those who that you may consider should be in the know, cannot yet be expected to give a clear and coherent answer.
Love
Jason x
JR Turner
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 10:26pm:GOD created man.
I can show you a man.
I cannot show you a citizen. The citizen must testify as such.
Man created government.
(Note: Governments DO NOT EXIST in nature.)
Government created citizens.
If you believe you are a citizen then you were created by government.
A fully informed man may volunteer to be a citizen.
What are the benefits to volunteering to become a citizen?
The created can NEVER be greater than the CREATOR.
If I can’t do it to you, and you can’t do it to me, then they can’t do it to us. Unless we volunteer.
We the People CANNOT delegate authority that we ourselves DO NOT have, even to our servant government.
fuzzi
Said this on February 14th, 2007 at 11:14pm:FYI:
bop.gov has Kent listed as ‘in transit’. From my experience, that means that very soon he will probably be taken to Oklahoma City, and processed with other new additions to ‘Club Fed’. Within a couple weeks or maybe a month, he will then be sent to the facility to which he has been assigned.
During this time, he probably will not be able to communicate. My brother went on the ‘grand tour’ within a week of self-surrender and was unable to receive mail for a while.
We’ll continue to pray for him and Jo.
Samphire
Said this on February 15th, 2007 at 3:07am:Hi, Gary,
Reading your posts I feel as though I am somebody walking around an enormous supermarket full of meats and delights when I come across a shelf filled with identical tins of baked beans.
I pick up a tin and hear a tiny voice coming from within it. The voice extols the joy of being a baked bean and that being a baked bean is the summit of existence. For the bean nothing exists outside of its tin – the tin is the reason for the bean’s existence – all else is illusion. Nothing that anyone can say will convince the bean that there is a great deal of stuff worth experiencing outside of the tin or, indeed, could be experienced outside of the tin.
You are clearly tuned to a different wavelength to me (Radio Ga Ga?). For you to claim that (some) science exists just to discredit the Bible says more about you than it does about science. Where does this inferiority complex come from? No need to answer.
You give me a verse to prove how the Bible pre-empts science and I respond that the very verse you supplied is scientifically wrong. In responding you ignore my point. JohnLake gave a much better exegesis than mine which I hope you will respond to.
So why do I bother? Because I like you.
Moving on to my next point, please define the exact date (plus or minus) when science became the “science of today”. Perhaps you are unaware that Plato was an evolutionist. As for scientists who are discriminated against because of their religious views I recommend the following:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/science/12geologist.html
and invite your response.
In today’s (Feb 15th) London Times is a joint letter from a Professor of Genetics, a former Director of the Meteorological Office, a Professor of Psychology and a Professor of Geophysics stating “Our faith in the existence of the God revealed both in creation and in the person of Jesus is not diminished in any way by our scientific understanding.” Why can’t you say that?
You say: “Of course, any theistic scientist who develops a theory and evidence to disprove any part of evolution surely come under fire because of the belief in a supernatural God”
Such as who and what theory?
I don’t think that scientists worry whether or not creationists (by which we mean YECs) have any agenda. It is the YEC bit that is objected to – the agenda is irrelevant – because it conflicts with the findings of science. Your immodest allusion to a ‘rock farting in a soup’ just accentuates your appearance of desperation.
Re St Paul. Contrary to what you state, the common men of ancient Egypt were well aware of their religion. The pyramids were not built by slaves or under duress but by the common people. To a degree it was a religious exercise but one for which they were also well paid and well looked after. To them, their Pharaoh was a representation of God and therefore the building of the tomb was a task they did for God. The history of their religion can still be read as it was originally written some 4,500 years ago and not, as with the Christian religion, fraudulently distorted over a period of 300 and more years to fit the ascendant dogma.
Your presentation of the history of earlier religions as being a distortion of Christianity is a rehash of Justin Martyr and Tertullian’s ludicrous view of about 200 AD that the Devil had plagiarised Christianity by anticipation – a straightforward admission that the Mysteries were not unadjacent to Christianity. This is akin to stating that Word 97 is a plagiarised version of Word 2000. Justin Martyr even called Socrates a Christian before Christ as he wrote in his First Apology ch.46: “We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them; and among the barbarians, Abraham, and Ananias, and Azarias, and Misael, and Elias, and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious. ”
Contrary to what you say, this is not an attack on Christianity but a recognition of how it evolved. It is a shame you cannot live with the reality except by blaspheming against the religious foundations upon which modern Christianity stands. The story of the Tower of Babel is an allegory and a rather ridiculous one at that.
I am pleased to hear you are not spending money on a credited degree – not that there is anything wrong with that even if you were – I am sure it will be worth every cent
You are correct that evolution is not science as I have said many times. It is fact. The theory of Evolution is science and you can throw a hissy fit as often as you like but it won’t change anything. The ToE will evolve in time. Somebody might discover in due course some new paradigm which rules out the Theory and brings in a new one. That will be OK because that is the way science works. On the other hand, the Theory of Young Earth Creationism is not science nor can it ever because it does not conform to the rules of science. It’s truths are based upon its textbook and not upon naturalistic observations. It does conform nicely, however, to the definition of Religion. So enjoy your religion as religion and let me enjoy my science as science.
Kind regards
Samphire
Samphire
Said this on February 15th, 2007 at 3:14am:Hi Ken,
You say: “I owe no apologies to anyone and my children have been taught to question everything someone tells them, not to take it at face value or accept people’s words as absolute truth.”
Can you give an example of something which your children have seen on a Hovind seminar tape and questioned and what was the outcome?
louielouie
Said this on February 15th, 2007 at 5:23am:Hello Mr. Hovind,
whether you are standing in a prison, a beach, a mountain, or anywhere on God’s earth…God plan is the most mysterious and we are swept away in it, like a fast moving river, for our protection and benefit. The fact that He has allowed you and not someone else to be put in this situation will have profound effect in the long run.
I say DON’T fight the current. Let it surround you and allow it to protect and blanket you with love and and comfort. Walk with God’s humbleness and love.
You have not missed anything on the outside. It is the “same old…same old” out here.
What is exciting is that right now the Angels loudly cheering for the accomplishments you are achieving daily that continue to please the Lord from where you are now.
All the nay sayers don’t get it right now, but, let’s all continue to pray for them.
I would never in a million years allow my ‘VERY worst enemy’ a chance to end up in a place like “HELL” for an eternity!!
Those that don’t understand that (yet) are always in our prayers, because the millisecond after they die, without understanding what they’ve pushed away all their lives, it will suddenly reveal its’ horror and to compound this frightening outcome, the fact that life in HELL WILL NEVER END!!!!
Just this thought alone is the energy needed to continue to bring more and more to CHRIST.
Kent Hovind we are here for you. Thousands and thousands of us.
…and don’t forget Jesus, He is there with you every step of the way.
God bless you always,
Louie
GaryMurray
Said this on February 15th, 2007 at 12:36pm:JohnnyLake and Samphire,
I fully intend to respond to both your posts and messages. I apologize I haven’t been able to ablige as quickly as usual, but I have had a few appointments today and yesterday afternoon which has caused me no time to respond.
I’ll get you your answers today. For those of you following along, don’t worry, the Bible isn’t wrong with Isaiah 55:10, it is perfectly accurate, so never fear.
I dont’ have to tell most of you anyway, the Word of God is Perfect, but just in case there are a few new ones out there, there is a logical explanation of Isaiah 55:10 which includes the knowledge of how to read and compare scripture. 
More soon,
God Bless!
Gary
GORGE
Said this on February 15th, 2007 at 2:13pm:Dear samphire,
I am sad but not suprised that you didnt answer any of the relevent questions.You just ran off cluching the latest copy of ape’r'us weekly, into the safe haven of fortress fancy talk to arise a little later only to call me basicly a liar.
Well in answer to your question
I only found out over the last few years how many Evolutionary ‘proofs’ have been dis credited,not only by Christian scientists but others includeing secular governing bodies &scentists .But you don’t hear of it do we on the media thats so quick to promote evolution.
I have not always been a christian.As a teenager and young adult the confession of my mouth if anyone asked was ‘there is no God’ and without getting into the debate on whos more moral(I Know plenty of hard working desent athiests),personly this veiw of no God did allow me a lifestlye of sin.
I’m far from an academic or inteligent man, but back in those days when talking to Christians about evolution I would use the same arguments as are put on this blog.Afterall they seem like reAsonble arguments and to the human mind they are, to be fair,
ie, star light,the erosion of rock and earth around water ways and water falls ect.
I did belive in God as a child but like a chaulk cliff by the sea this gradualy aroaded.Perhaps because I wanted to do my own thing but also very much because of the things taught at school in the science class,educational books for kids and tv.These would say with no argument to the contry that evolution was right.
I have not got the relavent material at hand as I have lent it outIf you wish to check everthing get lies in the texts book by a one k.hovind.)
One of these was Haeckel’s diagrams (Sorry for last blog but in my language, the point of these diagrams was to prove I was related to a fish and other various beasties).I wasnt told and so was no one else,that this was discredited by Haeckels own universaty,and prooved infact that he made the whole thing up,but no one mentioned that part in the education books and was defently used as proof for evolution for more than a hundred years later.IT MIGHT STILL BE IN THE TEXT BOOKS.
After haveing only what can be described as supernatural intervention and feeling the forgiveness of Almighty God and then liveing in him.(I know,I know you dont have to say it to me so loud mr evo “the power of the mind woooo!!”) I knew evolution was wrong,but not knowing how to explain why.
So i already knew these things were false but didnt know how to explain it until a few months ago when watched kent hovinds dvd.
Amougst the haeckel drawings,he also pointed out many errors which were left for years in the text books and used as proof to young impreshnable minds.Please get dvd for full accout.
GaryMurray
Said this on February 15th, 2007 at 4:09pm:Samphire & JohnLake
I will combine my answer to both your post as both of you jumped at the opportunity to point out what you thought was a discrepancy in the Bible. First there are a few things that you need to understand about the Bible before you refute it. The Bible doesn’t have multiple authors it has one, God. For more on this look up the word inspire in the Websters 1828 Dictionary as it is the inspired word of God. I believe in greek the word inspire means ‘God Breathed’ but don’t quote me until I verify with resources. The Bible does, however, have multiple writers. To understand this I will give a very simple illustration.
Stephen King has authored MANY books, but he hasn’t used the same typewriter/computer/printer for each copy. I know you Evo’s won’t see it as being that comparable, but you’ll –assume- a sparrow was once a T-Rex………?………….
Anyhow, the moment I posted Isaiah 55:10, believe it or not, my first thought was, ‘hmmm, that hydrolic cycle does return to the clouds (guys, this is like 4th grade science (its science because it is an observable proven fact) I knew about the hydrolic cycle, you think I would post a verse unless I knew there was a reasonable explanation for its meaning?), that’s odd, but I’m sure there is a purpose for that statement, and sure enough, the next verse just proved it to be so!’ Wow! Imagine that, verse 11 is a continuance of 55:10. See, if only you were Bible believers you would have known that scripture has to be read in its entirety, not one verse at a time.
Here it is, and hopefully you’ll both understand, but seeing as how neither of you are Bible believers I doubt I’ll get as positive a return as I would like to see.
Isaiah 55:10
10 “For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:” –KJV
Your argument is that by reading this verse the Bible is telling us that snow and rain ‘returneth not thithe’r to where it came (the heavens) in this case. (almost valid boys)
What you failed to see, while basking in the excitement that you found a contradiction, is that the end of this verse has a ‘ : ‘ that means the sentence didn’t end, and the statement continues. I give you part 2…
Isaiah 55:11
11 “So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.” –KJV
Ok, now strap on your thinking caps and put the mind control of evolution away for one moment and stick with me here…
These two verses do not (and I never claimed them to) explain the science of plant life, or atmospheric cycles. As a matter of a fact the passages aren’t to divulge the cycle of water and plant life, but to explain how the Word of God works.
I probably lost both of you right there… Keep reading, it’s really not complicated.
Ok, let’s get to the specifics of verse 10:
“For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven”.
-Hmmm, rain, snow, pretty specific form of precipitation.
Continue…
“and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth”
-Hmmm, so rain and snow doesn’t return thither, fascinating…
Question, why didn’t God just say “As the water cometh down from the heaven”? Perhaps because he was specific in FORM. Notice God did say the SNOW and the RAIN ‘watereth’ the earth. Hmm, he sure does order those words in a specific manner…
How many here have ever seen rain, rain up into the sky?
How many here have ever seen snow, snow up into the sky?
We’ve seen water evaporate and return into the heaven (clouds) as a gaseous form, not in the form of rain or snow.
Ok…Now…
How many here understand that water, as it evaporates, the vapor descends back up into the sky? I do, I do! Great!
Well, that’s not Rain, nor is it Snow, its an evaporate form of WATER. Let’s look at the definition of rain…
Dictionary.com (sorry webster’s 1828 web site is down at the moment)
1. water that is condensed from the aqueous vapor in the atmosphere and falls to earth in drops more than 1/50 in. (0.5 mm) in diameter.
Ok, so water form rain, and water forms snow, but rain and snow by definition is not ‘water’. There has to be a physical variant or chemical reaction must occur in order for it to change from either of the into water and vice versa, neither of these becoming liquid but a gas, what about that, another FORM.
Ok, so Rain by definition, falls to earth… sorry JohnLakes this specific verse doesn’t discuss evaporations of precipitation as you claimed it has before said precipitations reaches earth, if God would have etched water instead of rain, I might be more understanding to your comment, but He didn’t, almost as though He knew what he was talking about.
Secondly, drops more than 1/50 in. (0.5 mm) in diameter. Ewww, what does this mean? Means it has a definite SIZE when it FALLS TO EARTH. So this should more than satisfy your inquiry, JohnLakes. (I didn’t mention the Hail for two reasons)
First of all, Hail is no where listed in verse 10, sorry, remember we’re being specific.
Second of all, you posted verse 10 from the NIV and brought the Hail argument up, in relation to the NIV’s publish.
I don’t support the NIV, as a matter of a fact I believe the NIV to be one of the most contradictory forms and insult to the true Word of God. The NIV is nothing, it is NOT the Word of God, and is not welcome to be used to support anything my KJV is fully capable of saying, regardless if it is presented by friend or foe. I’ve never claimed the NIV to be the Word of God, so if you want to say it has contradictions, I’m with ya brother!
So, what have we established. Rain by definition, falls to earth in drops more than 1/50 inch. I didn’t list snow in defense because the idea that JohnLakes posted was that the atmosphere was hot enough and the particles were small enough to evaporate back into gaseous form, air prior to it hitting the ground. Well, if it is snowing, it most likely isn’t going to evaporate, but there again, even if so, it is no longer in the form of snow but evaporated water particles, and the Bible is specific about what FORM of precipitation doesn’t return thither, thus we should be as descriptive in our discussion.
Ok, now… I believe the entire argument has been satisfactorily explained and we all understand that verse 10 spoke directly of RAIN and SNOW (not water) as forms of precipitation that do not return thither as they went out(to everyone but JohnLakes and Samphire I’m sure), but I can’t make them accept truth. Why is the FORM of precipitation in this passage important, why would God even list this in his Word, what’s His purpose? Great questions, even better answer, fascinating, check this out…water is to the life for plants as the Word of God is for life of sinners…
God said in verse 11 (OF THE KJV)
“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please,…”
Ok, comparative of 10 to 11…
11 – “So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth”
10 – As the rain and snow falls from the heaven.
11 – “it shall not return unto me void”
10 – It won’t return to God the same as it left much, like snow and rain doesn’t return to the sky in the same form it left.
11 – “but it shall accomplish that which I please”
10 – Just as rain and snow waters the earth and brings forth life, the Word of God (WHEN IT IS HEARD) brings forth life as well.
Either of you guys notice how God said Rain and Snow falleth, but he used the term ‘watereth the earth’, wow that’s crazy, almost as if he knew he couldn’t just say water falls from the heaven and returns not, but watereth the earth… Hmmm, You never know, that KJV might be right…
Both of you, JohnLakes and Samphire tried reading one verse of scripture like a science book, when in fact in many of my earlier posts I said directly the Bible isn’t a science book, it won’t give you the makeup of an atom and it won’t specify any type of modern scientific model as translated in science textbooks of today, but it does align itself with what we know about the working of science and ‘nature’, today.
Had you tried reading the Bible like a Bible instead of disrespecting its meaning and trying to use it as leverage to prove a small point, you might have stopped and realized there was no contradiction to begin with. Both of you should try reading the Bible with an open mind rather than accepting it as a laughable form of writing, or are you just frightened of what you might find in there, are you frightened that what is in there might just be true. Here is another question for ya… What if it turns out to be?
Either or, if God had said ‘Water returneth not hither” it would still be a true statement as water is a liquid form, evaporated water is a gaseous form (two parts oxygen, 1 part hydrogen) the vapor is gas, not liquid water, so the argument is irrelevant from the start. Three elemental forms… Its either a Solid, a Liquid or a Gas. That’s like 3rd grade science folks. Water is liquid, water evaporated is gas.
Hmmm, another three… kinda like the trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Yeah, baby!
JohnLakes, here is my issue with your reply to my post… My post was 4 pages long in Microsoft Word. It was full of legitimate evidence which presented the speed of light isn’t a constant. I also had remarks and quoted scripture in reference to Samphire asking me to explain to him, why God does some things He does. Isaiah 55:10 was simply a footnote I came across, which supported modern science while I was only looking for a reference to explain to Samphire why I can’t explain God to him. I thought it was an interesting point to be given to believing csebloggers.
You ‘waded through a sea of diamonds and plucked one piece of coal’.
I guess what I’m saying is you lunged, only when you saw an opportunity at weakness, but you never even touched on the overall topic.
Anyway, I know my explanation would never satisfy two non-believers, but there again it’s because your hardened heart and closed minds won’t accept anything but what is right in your own eyes.
Samphire, I am well aware of the rest of your post and (Lord willing) expect to reply tomorrow.
I still love the both of you and hope and pray one day God’s word will reach your hearts because like it or not gentlemen. God is real, you can accept it in life or in death, and rest assured eventually you’ll accept it. Read the Bible to see which would be the most profitable for your souls.
LoungeAct
Said this on February 15th, 2007 at 7:44pm:Yay! Kent Hovind’s in jail! Why wasn’t my last comment posted? Is it because Kent likes to only put up comments that are in his favor, and just a handful of comments against him so it looks like he’s being unbiased? I’m sure that’s it. Anyway, I’ll say it again: YAY!! I hope Kent stays in prison where he belongs until the day he dies! I’m so happy about this.
Billd777333
Said this on February 15th, 2007 at 8:58pm:I have not read all of the response’s to Dr. Hovinds challenge’s. I believe that Dr. Hovind is one of the only persons who tears poor science apart. I now pray to God that he would have mercy on the ministry of Dr. Hovind. That God would release Dr. Hovind so that Dr. Hovind can continue to promote the truth about creation. God Dr. Hovind’s heart is to bring others to you. God you mean everything to Kent and he love’s you and wants others to come to know and love you. God he is causing others to focus on you. Do not forget your servant. God many souls turn to, and now love, worship and adore you because he turns their minds on your truths about science. GOD it is now time to act. We pray this for the advancement of the cause of Christ Jesus. In his name, for his fame please show your self strong, bring glory to your self through the true creation story and release brother Hovind. Amen.
Samphire
Said this on February 15th, 2007 at 9:12pm:Hi, JohnLake
Perhaps the kindest thing we can do is to bow out of this discussion with Gary in acute embarrassement.
Good bye
CreationCD
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 12:17am:What evidence other that the Red-Shift and the Cosmological Background Radiation exists for the Big Bang Theory. If another theory could explain these observations the “proof” for the Big Bang would be gone. If the Big Bang theory failed to predict or explain certain aspects of the observed data are these proofs a little less solid.
The Cosmic Background Radiation variations were not great enough to form the structures of our universe.
The Red-Shifts are quantized for no apparent or explainable reason.
Supernatural Beliefs required to believe in The Big Bang. (beyond or outside of nature):
1) Creation of all matter, energy and space from a quantum fluctuation.
2) Infinite number of parallel universes. (That’s pretty big)
3) Four times more matter than all observable matter and energy in the form of dark matter not made of protons, neutrons or electrons. This ghost or spiritual matter only interacts with matter by gravity like force.
4) Fifteen times more energy than all observable matter and energy in the form of dark energy which is a strange anti-gravity force.
5) Faster than light expansion from smaller than a proton to 100 million light-year diameter in 10^-32 seconds during the inflationary period.
6) Continued faster than light expansion from 100 million light-year diameter to 150 billion light-year diameter over the next 15 Billion years.
Supernatural Beliefs required to believe in the Creation model:
1) God
Occum’s Razor anyone?
Light Speed and Other Puzzling Data That May Support a Recent Creation by Barry Setterfield
http://www.nwcreation.net/videos/lightspeed_andother_puzzlingdata.html
Starlight and Time 23 minute documentary by Russell Humphreys (5.3MB RealPlayer file)
http://www.nwcreation.net/videos/starlight_and_time.html
Creation Astronomy PowerPoint Presentations by Chris Ashcraft
(This Power Point download contains a short animation on “starlight and time” dilation and another on the “privileged planet” requirements for life.
http://www.nwcreation.net/presentations/creationastronomy.html
GORGE
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 12:59am:Hello Darling,
Thanks for confirming the mistake.To be fair looking back through the blogs,I can see how you made the simple reading error.Godbless you!
dinosrus
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 3:16am:After reading all of these blogs for months, I still come to the same conclusion that I did before.
This blog site is only positive when uplifting Kent and his entire family and getting updates about his well-being and that of the CSE Ministry.
All of these hundreds of comments going back and forth between several of the bloggers appear to be hopeless to change their mind about God and that the Bible is the Authority of God.
We must plant the seed and move on. I applaud many of you for doing that with the ones who have revealed to be atheists or just hate Kent Hovind. Some of you in my opinion have gone way above and beyond.
I will not engage into an e-mail debate because I do not believe it is as fruitful as being face to face with someone and telling them about Jesus and his love for us or about the creation account.
As for brother Hovind and family ,all of you are in my prayers. I could type several pages here about how your ministry has changed my life. I will keep lifting all of you up in prayers.
Since I was not at the court trial, or read the court transcript, or personally spoken to Kent Hovind about his situation then my opinion wouldn’t make sense to add. My only sources of information have been internet headlines and this blog.
I can only encourage all of the bloggers who have identified themselves as Christians to not pass judgment so quickly on brother Hovind. If you have limited sources of information on his court case and haven’t been personally involved in the trial, then your quick comments and condemnations haven’t lifted up our brother.
Everything Paul did was for the purpose of edification (2 Corinthians 12:19). “Make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification” (Romans 14:19). “Encourage one another and build each other up” (1 Thessalonians 5:11).
God Bless you all!!!!
FuManchu
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 6:06am:GaryMurray:
Just for personal reference, ‘inspire’ is Latin for ‘breathe upon’.
Carry on.
CreationCD
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 10:32am:There are some who call God a liar or a deceiver, because he says things that seem to be contradictions.
God often tests us by telling us things that are hard to believe:
2 Peter|3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2 Peter|3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2 Peter|3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
In the following example Jesus speaks very plainly. Is he lying, is he deceiving his followers, is he trying to drive them away?
John|6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John|6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John|6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
John|6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
John|6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
John|6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
John|6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
John|6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
…
John|6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked
no more with him.
John|6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
John|6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou
hast the words of eternal life.
John|6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son
of the living God.
John|6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
God demands that we believe and trust him. (Love is evidenced by trust and if you truly believe God’s promises then you will obey. “faith without works is dead”.)
Adam and Eve didn’t, and they lost everything because of it.
Abraham did, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Suppose your father told you something that sounded impossible. Would you call him a liar and a deceiver? Suppose you did, then told him you were going to prove him wrong. He said, “Sure go ahead,” and he let you explore your own ideas. He might remind you from time to time that he’s always been right before, and that he’s provided for his family up till now just fine.
You say, “No you haven’t (I didn’t get everything I wanted, look how evil you treated us), your always wrong (In my opinion), I know more than you (after all I’m in first grade now), it’s my life and I will do what I know is right.”
Maybe your kid brother comes by and says, “I think Dad’s right.” And you rail on him and tell him how stupid he is.
Who inherits the family business, to provide for mom and the future generations. While your father still provides for you, hoping you will repent, you becomes either more angry and bitter or more full of yourself.
******************************************************************************************************
I grew up going to a Lutheran church but I openly mocked God. When I was in high school, I even remember telling other kids after vacation bible school, that the pastor was wrong and evolution was true.
I couldn’t make it in college so I joined the Navy as an Engineering Laboratory Technician in the Nuclear Power Program. After eleven years and two kids, a friend invited us to church and I thought it would be good for the kids. One day the preacher’s sermon was on;
Romans|8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans|8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
I realized that in all area’s where I disagreed with God, in my way of thinking, in expounding my own beliefs, in my actions, in my excuses for my actions, I was God’s enemy.
His enemy!
I didn’t want to be God’s enemy. A sinner who made some bad choices like everyone else, OK. Agnostic, weak, confused, anything but willfully God’s enemy.
During the invitational prayer at the end of the service I was too dizzy to go forward and talk to the preacher, my legs actually would not support me and I sat down in my seat. I determined to read the Bible to see what it said and then talk to the pastor next week.
Now I had always loved and studied science and I believed that science contradicted the Bible. I learned the only way to be saved was to put my faith and trust in Jesus who was willing to pay the price of my crime against God.
I told God, “Whatever you say. If you say the sky is green, OK, you’re right, my eyes don’t process colors the way they really are. I need a Saviour, I have no other choice.” (Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life)
I humbled my intellect first, then I humbled myself:
I was a sailor and I knew I had a lot of wickedness in my life. One thing I hadn’t thought of though was that my job required me to sign radiation surveys showing that no contamination was ever released while docking or performing maintenance. Well, we clean up after our work, but the Navy needed us to lie on these legal documents so that it can continue to speedily maintain its Nuclear Fleet while never releasing any radioactive contamination to the environment.
I told my division Officer and then the Captain that I had been falsifying legal documents. I didn’t fink on anyone else or make life miserable for others who only did what I had done for years. I was lucky and I only got brig time and an honorable discharge.
After a few years of hardship, God provided me with a good job. Better than the one I had left and actually knit my family together closer when we had been on the verge of separating.
What I got most was peace with God. He treats me like a son for the sake of His true son.
Psalms|89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
(That’s me, I mess up. How about you?)
Psalms|89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
(Yep, I fail all the time)
Psalms|89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
(Yes, God spanks and you’ll be sorry, but … )
Psalms|89:33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
(But He’ll never stop loving you, He will never leave you or forsake you)
Psalms|89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
(He will never alter His world nor break His promises, or His covenant; Like when he said, “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” And I prayed told God that I had done evil and begged him to forgive me.)
Evolution was a huge stumblingblock for me. God got me to climb over it by leveling some pretty heavy guns at me. One night in my car I heard Dr. Hovind on Coast to Coast AM. He showed me that evolution was not so high a wall, it has gaps and breaches and can even be stepped over in places. His main goal is to get people saved. He even told them about Jesus over the radio.
Getting others over that stumblingblock to Jesus was something I could relate to.
Many thousands can say God bless you Dr. Hovind.
Many thousands love you for your ministry.
May God bless and strengthen you and your family during this ordeal.
Doug Hove
GaryMurray
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 10:35am:1. Samphire
Said this at 3:07am:
My responses are italicized directly below each paragraph.
Reading your posts I feel as though I am somebody walking around an enormous supermarket full of meats and delights when I come across a shelf filled with identical tins of baked beans.
I pick up a tin and hear a tiny voice coming from within it. The voice extols the joy of being a baked bean and that being a baked bean is the summit of existence. For the bean nothing exists outside of its tin – the tin is the reason for the bean’s existence – all else is illusion. Nothing that anyone can say will convince the bean that there is a great deal of stuff worth experiencing outside of the tin or, indeed, could be experienced outside of the tin.
The same could be said about close-minded evolutionists. I’m sorry my posts are so difficult for you to digest, but you don’t have to read them.
You are clearly tuned to a different wavelength to me (Radio Ga Ga?). For you to claim that (some) science exists just to discredit the Bible says more about you than it does about science. Where does this inferiority complex come from? No need to answer.
I never stated that some science is ONLY created, observed, mastered and used solely for the purpose of disproving the Bible, I believe you misunderstood my post, it might have been my posting error in which case I will try to be more clear. I said some science is used to disprove the Bible, and this is a true statement. Example, JohnLake and Your rebuttal as it pertains to the hydrologic cycle. That is a form of science that was used by your own hand to disprove the Bible. This science is used for many other purposes, but it is ALSO used to disprove the Bible, as we’ve seen evidence on this board, I hope this helps to clear up any confusion about my statement.
You give me a verse to prove how the Bible pre-empts science and I respond that the very verse you supplied is scientifically wrong. In responding you ignore my point. JohnLake gave a much better exegesis than mine which I hope you will respond to
I did, I still stick behind Isaiah 55:10. I have given a very in depth explanation of the scripture and further explained that the scripture is not ‘scientifically wrong’ as you may well believe. In your over anxiousness to disprove scripture, you never once gave my reference the benefit of a doubt. Since its title is “The Bible” you have already have already conceived and concluded well before you even knew me, that the Bible is corrupt, contradictory and completely wrong. So nothing scriptural I post (or nothing defending scripture in either science or any topic) will ever be a legitimate source received by your own ears. That still doesn’t make the Bible, wrong, it might make you narrow minded to other truths due to your belief in evolution. Don’t be shocked by that statement, I will make the same in my own offense… I am very narrow minded as it pertains to evolution because my belief in the Bible. That, and the fact that evolution is only an unproven theory.
So why do I bother? Because I like you.
I like you too, I wanna see you saved! It would bless my heart to see such a determined man, much like you, passionate and strong-minded in their belief that they’ll go to the mat to defend their faith. I want you on our side! I’ll never stop praying for your salvation until your’re saved, I’m dead or Christ claims his bride.
Moving on to my next point, please define the exact date (plus or minus) when science became the “science of today”. Perhaps you are unaware that Plato was an evolutionist. As for scientists who are discriminated against because of their religious views I recommend the following:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/science/12geologist.html
and invite your response.
Date, I consider modern science anything that is studied and researched in the last 100 years. Please don’t misunderstand and conclude that I disbelieve any science beyond 100 years as I am sure would be brought up if I hadn’t made that point clear. Besides, my Bible has an age of at least 6,000 years and I believe all of it.
The acceptance of a scientist that claims to be a creationist and a Bible believer that develops research that supports the evolutional theory of an age-old earth has nothing to do with my point, that which you continually manage to miss. I stated that work and research of a scientist who claims to be a Christian or a creationist is typically debunked when the results are in contrast with any part of the evolution theory. I never stated that all work of any Christian scientist is ridiculed.
As for the scientist who claims he believes the Bible completely, which Bible, do you know, what type of religion, was it stated? Neither was listed, secondly any ‘believer’ that says he believes the Bible and a young earth creation, yet studies and writes scientific papers and evidence of an age old earth over ’65 million years old’ shouldn’t be used by either side as it is apparent that this guy has issues. Allow me to give you scripture explaining my statement.
James 1:8 (I am giving you verses only so you’ll take the time to look the verse up, yes it is an attempt to get you reading the Word of God)
1 John 2:19
Matthew 7:15
He is probably one of those double minded fellas, who claims he was one of us, but never really was one of us, for if he was really one of us, he wouldn’t have left us, so that leads me to conclude and be vigilant in the possibility he might be a ravening wolf in sheep’s clothing.
In today’s (Feb 15th) London Times is a joint letter from a Professor of Genetics, a former Director of the Meteorological Office, a Professor of Psychology and a Professor of Geophysics stating “Our faith in the existence of the God revealed both in creation and in the person of Jesus is not diminished in any way by our scientific understanding.” Why can’t you say that?
You say: “Of course, any theistic scientist who develops a theory and evidence to disprove any part of evolution surely come under fire because of the belief in a supernatural God”
Such as who and what theory?
I’ll give you two examples off the top of my head. I already know and expect your response, but I’m hoping against hope that a shred of decency might actually surface causing you to put away your opinion of a man and look at his accomplishments instead of his character and what his label is.
Kent Hovind – Has researched and studied science for many years. Regardless your opinion and others opinions (that which I’m not interested in) many of his conclusions are sound and unchallenged (successfully).
Ron Wyatt – Passed away in 99, great man of God who has found much evidence of the ‘supernatural’ events that took place in the Bible and even dates his evidence accurately with the timeline of scripture.
There is a third I just can’t remember his name, I believe his work was in Isotope Halo’s, but I just can’t recall at the moment. I can get this info if you really want it. Doesn’t matter however, history is full of this type of criticism, it wouldn’t be a difficult task for me to pull references on a list of men and women who have come under fire in the scientific community due to their religious backgrounds.
I don’t think that scientists worry whether or not creationists (by which we mean YECs) have any agenda. It is the YEC bit that is objected to – the agenda is irrelevant – because it conflicts with the findings of science. Your immodest allusion to a ‘rock farting in a soup’ just accentuates your appearance of desperation.
No, actually my statement of a rock farting in soup is just a comical pun intended keep what some believe to be a boring discussion, a little more enjoyable. I know of the primordial soup theory and am well aware of how it is believed to have evolved. I am no where near desperate, trust me.
Re St Paul. Contrary to what you state, the common men of ancient Egypt were well aware of their religion. The pyramids were not built by slaves or under duress but by the common people. To a degree it was a religious exercise but one for which they were also well paid and well looked after. To them, their Pharaoh was a representation of God and therefore the building of the tomb was a task they did for God. The history of their religion can still be read as it was originally written some 4,500 years ago and not, as with the Christian religion, fraudulently distorted over a period of 300 and more years to fit the ascendant dogma.
Its fascinating to me that what you have posted here is exactly what ALL disbelievers say about religion, who have never studied the history of religion or theology. Let me say first of all, I never claimed nor has anyone with a common understanding of the Bible that slaves build the Pyramids. A quick study of the Bible will prove that the word Pyramid isn’t even FOUND in the Bible as a matter of a fact the word slave is only found once in the Bible and the word slaves is found once as well. So this statement is the ‘dogmatic mainstream typical falsified uneducated’ mindset that the modern day anti-religious movement drills into the minds of anyone who doesn’t know history of theology, and they believe it.
As a matter of a fact, the Bible states in Exodus, as does history, that the children of Israel built ‘treasure cities’. At last check the pyramids weren’t cities, but burial tombs for pharaohs and kings. Secondly, I believe you might be referring to the study of bones found in the dormitory dwellings and burials of the workers of the pyramids. I caught this documentary (on discovery I believe). Very good stuff, I enjoyed it greatly. They found bones where the workers of the pyramids dwelt during the building process. They compared bones to Jewish people and found that the bones actually match that of (I believe Indian decent, but don’t quote me on that) either way they found that the bones of the workers of the pyramid were not that of Jewish ‘slaves’. I would fully agree, wanna know why?? Great! I am gonna tell ya anyway! You see, even if the Jews did work on the pyramids, there would never be bones found because God delivered them from bondage out of Egypt! Of course you’re not gonna find bones of people who left long ago! Another minor example of a type of science used to deface scripture when it never was scripture to begin with. Be careful not to be so easily misled, just because Walt Disney puts out a cartoon movie about Moses growing up in Egypt and becoming Pharoah’s adopted son and they depict Jewish slaves working on pyramids, doesn’t make it scriptural or even accurate. Not all forms of explanation is truth. Just read the Bible, your statement that you believe that Christians believe slaves only worked on pyramids is proof that you never even took the initiative to verify it in the scripture, had you done so you would have found it to be completely incorrect and misinformed.
Your presentation of the history of earlier religions as being a distortion of Christianity is a rehash of Justin Martyr and Tertullian’s ludicrous view of about 200 AD that the Devil had plagiarised Christianity by anticipation – a straightforward admission that the Mysteries were not unadjacent to Christianity. This is akin to stating that Word 97 is a plagiarised version of Word 2000. Justin Martyr even called Socrates a Christian before Christ as he wrote in his First Apology ch.46: “We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them; and among the barbarians, Abraham, and Ananias, and Azarias, and Misael, and Elias, and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious. ”
Contrary to what you say, this is not an attack on Christianity but recognition of how it evolved. It is a shame you cannot live with the reality except by blaspheming against the religious foundations upon which modern Christianity stands. The story of the Tower of Babel is an allegory and a rather ridiculous one at that.
Your statement that the ‘story of the Tower of Babel is allegory’ is an opinion and a sad one to say the least. Whatever your source is it is misinformed.
Secondly, your statement of Christianity is completely off-based and again proves you have no real knowledge of theology and it’s past.
Justin Martyr didn’t make a mistake when he labeled man Christians before the birth of Christ. It might be he labeled them so because he understood two things… Christology in the Bible and Prophesy in the Bible… let me explain.
John 1:1-2 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God”
So we know that in the beginning, the Word was with God… Ok…
John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…the only begotten of the Father…”
Pretty cut and dry folks. In the beginning was the Word (Christ) and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
You are correct that evolution is not science as I have said many times. It is fact. The theory of Evolution is science and you can throw a hissy fit as often as you like but it won’t change anything.
True, micro-evolution is fact, but the theory of evolution is a study to prove it is science. You are still missing the simple vocabulary term of science! If the theories behind evolution are not conclusive fact, it cannot be labeled science, see my earlier post and vocabulary term of science.
The ToE will evolve in time.
Time is always the best answer for any evolutionist.
Somebody might discover in due course some new paradigm which rules out the Theory and brings in a new one. That will be OK because that is the way science works.
No, this is the way research of trial and error works. Not science.
On the other hand, the Theory of Young Earth Creationism is not science nor can it ever because it does not conform to the rules of science. It’s truths are based upon its textbook and not upon naturalistic observations. It does conform nicely, however, to the definition of Religion.
I agree, I never said nor do I believe the Bible should be used as a science textbook, it is, however, fascinating to me that the Bible is so closely accurate when it comes to scientific discovery. Point of order, there are many other resources used to support the evidence of events as they took place as well as when they took place in the Bible. Theology doesn’t necessarily ONLY need the Word of God, however, it sure does stand strong on its own without any help.
So enjoy your religion as religion and let me enjoy my science as science.
I am all for this, however, since I am not able to drill my religion into pubic school textbooks because of the controversy that surrounds its teachings in society, then don’t drill the theory of evolution into the minds of public school kids since it too, is of a controversial and inconclusive nature.
God Bless, as always,
Gary Murray
GaryMurray
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 10:49am:Samphire
Said this at 10:45am:
My replies are below each paragraph in italics. -GM
Well, I don’t know about you, Gary, but I don’t live in a cave anymore or drive a buffalo cart. As time moves on mankind use its various senses including reason to discover things and as we are able to leave records of our findings to later generations so the body of knowledge is built up. As Bernard of Chartres first said “we are like dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, so that we can see more than they, and things at a greater distance, not by virtue of any sharpness on sight on our part, or any physical distinction, but because we are carried high and raised up by their giant size.”.
The heavens are not some theological construct. They are as much part of the physical universe as is the Earth and Moon and to some extent are capable of measurement and analysis if only we had the tools – so stop being so painfully and piously ‘umble. If you had been a Pilgrim you would still be eating ice cream in a Dartmouth cafe instead of being on the Mayflower bravely sailing over the horizon to a land where the hand of man had never set foot (apart, that is, from the various tribes of Indians who had come over from Asia at various earlier times and Columbus and the Vikings, of course).
We might not get all the way to discovering the beginning of time but we will have an enjoyable and exciting journey on the way and perhaps, if there is such a thing as a personal God, it is what He would want us to do. Who are you to say contrariwise? . Perhaps we will discover our universe is part of a fractal multi-verse in which case it may never have had a beginning but just breaks up into finer and finer miniverses like the shape of the shoreline of some Norwegian fiord. If that did prove to be the case where would that leave your theology? No need to answer that one.
The entire above statement is an opinion; I see no need to refute it as my stance in comparison has been clearly listed thus far on the board.
“So, in short. No Christian would ever answer a question about God unless the answer can be found in the Word of God. If the answer isn’t there, it isn’t that God doesn’t have the answer, it’s because God didn’t feel it necessary for us to have the answer. ”
So why do you pray to him?
I don’t know, why do you go to your Father and talk to him, why do you give a call to your Dad, if you need something from him or need his help or would like his opinion on something, why do you go to him? Same rule applies to the life of a Christian. Now I’m sure your next response is “Why ask for anything, he’s God he already knows” well yes, but he is a personal God who loves his Children and wants to fellowship with each of us and hear our cry. Not sure if you have any kids, I have a 11 month-old daughter, she is so precious to me and when she says “Da, Da, Da” nothing I am doing at that moment takes precedence over that call of my child.
“(The good news to all believers who are saved by the precious blood of Christ… We’ll talk it over in the by and by, AMEN! There is coming a day, when all those questions will be answered, gets my loins just tingling thinking about that other side, GLORY TO GOD!!)”
OK, OK, go and have a cold shower but, in the sweet by and by, don’t forget to ask about the walls around the stars and why there are evidences of supernovas that didn’t happen?
This is a personal attack on my character and my belief, not one worthy of rebuttal. Typically personal attacks and retorts are signs of desperation in debates. I figured you to be one of those who are beyond this type of sarcasm, Samphire.
I thought that I would Google Earth Israel to see if they have any PolyTunnels which take advantage of this new knowledge. I couldn’t find any so perhaps they are still reading from the original manual. But I did find an interesting architectural site in the desert at 31 07 37.27N 34 39 19.11E. You don’t know what it is, do you? It’s a few miles south west of Beersheba.
No, can’t say as I am familiar by coordinates alone, left my handy dandy long./lat. Scale at home… golly jee, I never do that either! Why not enlighten me on this site, I am always ready to hear the other side.
GaryMurray
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 10:50am:FuManchu
Said this at 6:06am:
——————————————————————————–
GaryMurray:
Just for personal reference, ‘inspire’ is Latin for ‘breathe upon’.
Carry on.
Thanks FuManchu… I just wasn’t sure but I know I had heard it before and read it somewhere as well.
GaryMurray
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 11:19am:dinosrus
Said this at 3:16am:
——————————————————————————–
All of these hundreds of comments going back and forth between several of the bloggers appear to be hopeless to change their mind about God and that the Bible is the Authority of God.
I’m really not here to change anyones mind about what they believe. Truth be told I would like everyone to convert and get saved, but that’s not up to me and I know it. What I am trying to do is make sure those that are saved realize that there are many forms false doctrine which could very easily shake their faith in the Bible and God himself.
It might stagger you to know statistics of how easily our children, once they are out on their own, leave their faith because of organized false doctrine that has a label of truth, but has a corruptible foundation. The only refuge is Proverbs 22:6 “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he shall not depart from it.”
I fear for my daughter, and for my (Lord willing) next child. I want them to grow up believing God, trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ to save their souls. I see so many children today so easily swaded in our bus ministry who have a lot of knowledge about what is called fact but in reality is nothing more than guesses, observations and yes even faithbased assumptions. I want her to know how a frog leaps, or how a bat flies in the dark because we can observe them doing so both in nature and with the biology of science, but she doesn’t need to be told they both evolved from a single cell organism, space dust, or even a powerful bang, they just don’t know if that is true!
My personal testimony includes the fact that I was once an uninformed Christian. The moment I ran across evolution my Faith would be shaken and cause me to tremble at the thought that I am serving a fake God. Only by the Grace of God and by trusting that he is right and his word is absolute was I able to pull away from those teachings and it has strengthened my faith. I remember how scared I was when I was weakest. I questioned everything, my salvation, my faith, the Bible, my God! Finally, with the help of Kent Hovind’s research and my studies in seminary, I have been able to go to God, and he has redeemed my faith 10 fold stronger than before.
Its amazing, a few verses that helped me along the way
John 3:30 “He must increase, but I must decrease”.
(in order for him to increase in us, we must decrease first)
2 Cor 12:10 “Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.”
(Because when I am decreased in weakness, then I am increased in Christ Jesus and his strength in me)
Rom 8:38-39
38 “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,”
39 “Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Meaning they can come up with as much evidence as they want, they can elaborate all that is needed, they can accuse, they can persecute and they can do all they want, but nothing will ever take us away from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God’s good folks! David tells us “A fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.”
Remember the promise folks, when your faith begins to shake or your doubts begin to mount…
Jesus said in Matthew, Mark and Luke: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
God Bless all!
GORGE
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 12:17pm:Dear GaryMurry,
Do you remember the verse in eccesasties
‘7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.’
I find it amaseing how King Solomon 3000 years ago knew this
.Did you know the bible says there are innumerable stars (jeremiah 33v22),
That each star is differnet(1 corintians 15v41),that air has weight(job 28v25)
That blood is the source of life and health(leviticus 17v11)
Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains(2 samuel 22v16,Jonah2v6),
That the Ocean contain springs(job 38v16)
It says when dealing with disease hands should be washed under running water(leviticus 15v13)
iT MENTION THE free float of earth in space(job 26v7),
the earth is a sphere(Isaiah 40v22)
Its worth checking what tDear Gary,
Do you remember the verse in eccesasties
‘7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.’
I find it amaseing how King Solomon 3000 years ago knew this
.Did you know the bible says there are innumerable stars (jeremiah 33v22),
That each star is differnet(1 corintians 15v41),that air has weight(job 28v25)
That blood is the source of life and health(leviticus 17v11)
Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains(2 samuel 22v16,Jonah2v6),
That the Ocean contain springs(job 38v16)
It says when dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water(leviticus 15v13)
iT MENTION THE free float of earth in space(job 26v7),
the earth is a sphere(Isaiah 40v22)
Its a blessing.
God bless
dinosrus
Thankyou for your blog,after reading it I came to the conclusion you are right in what you say.Thanks for the wise council.
Fu manchu.It might be the same I dont know,but Gary was talking about the Greek for inspire.
God bless
Jason
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 1:14pm:Hi Ken,
You wrote, “I owe no apologies to anyone and my children have been taught to question everything someone tells them, not to take it at face value or accept people’s words as absolute truth”.
My children are the same;
A recent example for me was when my daughter questioned the accounts of the crucifixion. She asked “Why does one account state, that both of the thieves crucified with Jesus mocked him, where as in another account it says one rebuked the other and asked Jesus to remember him when he entered his kingdom”.
My Daughter thought that it must be that one account was right and the other account was wrong, this lead her to question, she wasn’t about to just ignore such a contradiction.
What is the truth?
Which account is right?
How can the Bible be true if one account is wrong?
I didn’t have a good answer (and I wasn’t about to just wash over the issue by telling her to “just trust”), so I wrote to, “Khouse” the ministry of Chuck Missler, and presented them with the question.
They wrote back with this reply…
Addressing the different accounts of Matthew and Luke concerning the two thieves crucified with Jesus, it has been pointed out that given the amount of time (several hours) that the thieves were in the presence of Jesus, it is possible that while both did curse him, one later experienced a change of heart. And Luke omitted one fact while Matthew omitted the other.
My daughter asked a Good Question, she wanted a Good Clear & Coherent answer, although I myself didn’t have a good answer, I’m glad that through asking Questions and seeking answers I was able to find someone who did.
A Good Clear & Coherent answer was found.
I’m glad to have children who don’t just accept things as being the truth without question, I want them to grow up with understanding. How could they do this without asking questions and seeking answers?
Lots of love
Jason x
JR Turner
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 4:19pm:“Only the rare taxpayer would be likely to know that he could refuse to produce his records to IRS agents… Who would believe the ironic truth that the cooperative taxpayer fares much worse than the individual who relies upon his constitutional rights”.
-Judge Cummings, U.S. Federal Judge, in US. v. Dickerson (7th Circuit 1969)
… — …
“Let me point this out now. Your income tax is 100 percent voluntary tax, and your liquor tax is 100 percent enforced tax. Now, the situation is as different as night and day. Consequently, your same rules just will not apply…”.
-Dwight E. Avis, former head of the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division of the IRS, testifying before a House Ways and Means subcommittee in 1953
… — …
“Fear is the key element for the IRS in achieving its mission. Without fear, the IRS would have a difficult time maintaining our so-called system of voluntary compliance …”. “Given the opportunity, the IRS will take the easy way out and grab whatever it can… the IRS does not really care about you and what your future……. may be”.
-Santo Presti, former IRS Criminal Investigation Agent and author of “IRS In Action”
… — …
“The IRS is an extraordinary example of the end justifying the means. The means of this agency is growth. It is interesting that the revenue officers within the IRS refer to taxpayers as ‘inventory’. The IRS embodies the political realities of the selfish human desire to dominate others. Thus the end of this gigantic pretense of officialdom is power, pure and simple. The meek may inherit the earth, but they will never receive a promotion in an agency where efficiency is measured by the number of seizures of taxpayers’ property and by the number of citizens and businesses driven into bankruptcy”.
- George Hansen, Congressman and author of “To Harass Our People”
… — …
“…whenever the Injured come to the Capital with Complaints of Mal-administration, Oppression, or Injustice, punish such Suitors with long Delay, enormous Expence, and a final Judgment in Favour of the Oppressor. This will have an admirable Effect every Way. The Trouble of future Complaints will be prevented, and Governors and Judges will be encouraged to farther Acts of Oppression and Injustice; and thence the People may become more disaffected, and at length desperate.”
Benjamin Franklin,
Rules by which a Great Empire may be Reduced to a Small One
… — …
“Honor lies in honest toil.”
– Grover Cleveland
(1837-1908) 22nd & 24th US President
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blog/Grover.Cleveland.Quote.7932
… — …
“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state.
They forget that the state lives at the expense of everyone.”
– Frederic Bastiat
(1801-1850) French economist, statesman, and author. He did most of his writing during the years just before — and immediately following — the French Revolution of February 1848
Source: The Law, by Frederic Bastiat, 1850
http://telemanage.ca/learn/TheLaw.htm
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blog/Frederic.Bastiat.Quote.B25F
… — …
“Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny.”
– Aeschylus
(525-456 BC) Greek playwright
Source: Agamemnon
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blog/Aeschylus.Quote.9908
… — …
Kent and Jo Hovind are INNOCENT!!! The FRAUD continues.
GORGE
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 6:45pm:Dear GaryMurray,
Godbless brother for the encouraging comments made on your blogs
I’m only a construction worker and certainly not a bible scholar,
But with regard to the recent question posed by the samphras and fu about Isaiah 55v10,I would like to try and shed some light too,if thats ok.
Isaiah lived more than a hundred years after King Solomon.He would of certainly known eccs 1v7″All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
howing atleast evaporation of water from the sea to form clouds,even if he did not understand ‘how’.
A typical jewish poetic anologry showing the working of Gods word and not supposed to be sceintfic or even about the rain falling.Nevertheless ,as I can see from your blogs you agree, This is God speaking through the Prophet Isaiah therefore if not correct in every way then we might aswell packup.
But I doubt any of us will need to do that because Gods word is a light to our path and every word of God is faultless.
This is what Owen C. Whitehouse ma dd writes in the c’tuary bible-
‘returneth not thither…shall not return means ‘does not become impotent and ineffectual’.The Hebrew word (please check everything I say) for ‘return’ or ‘turn back’ can be explained as meaning ‘cease to operate’.Similarly in the words of our Lord the blessing (corresponding to its opposite,the curse which is the expression of wrath) has a beneficent potency.The salutation of peace of Christs messengers comes upon the worthy household,but upon the unworthy it ceases to operate,or,in the words of our Lord,’returns to yourselfs’ (matt 10v13,Luke 10v6,2 sam 1v22)
It would be preferable to render throughout the tenses in Hebrew as the expressing an abideing and recurrent fact,ie by present rather than future.The tenses in both verses,containing the natural simile and its spiritual analogue respectively,correspond.The word void is the key.For it is quite clear that the Divine word cannot be returned ‘void’ any more than the rain or snow,when it has accomplished it’s task.It mearly returns,ie.ceases to operate,it’s work haveing been done.render:For just as the rain and snow decend from heaven and do not return thither except they have drenched the earth,and made it bring forth and bud and have furnished seed to the sower and food to the eater;so is my word that proceeds from my mouth.It does not return to me,except it has done what I please and has succeeded in the mission on which I have sent it’Here the ‘word’ is,as it were,materialised and is ‘esnt’ from heaven like snow.Similarly in is 9v8 the contrasted word of Divine wrath falls on Israel.
Mathew Henry writes-
It returneth not without having accomplished it’s end,but water the earth.And the watering of the earth is in order to it’s fruitfulnes.Thus he makes it to bring forth and bud,and thus it gives not only bread to the eater,present maintenance to the owner and his family,but seed likewise to the sower,that he may have food…”so shall my word be,as powerful in the mouth of the prothets as it is in the hand of providence;it shall not return to me void,it shall accomplish that which I please,and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it”
It took me a few reads before it stuck,basicly its an anologry and as God word goes out to do it duty and cause,not returning void,so rain goes out it does not return void till it has pefrormed its duty.
see duet 32v2,hosea 10v12,is 9v12
Godbless
CMarychurch
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 8:41pm:GaryMurray
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/10/991005114024.htm
Are you aware the argument within that article is based upon the Big Bang model?
Are you aware the argument in no way supports a young universe?
As I stated previously, changing ‘c’ involves major changes in the structure of the Universe which is exactly what the paper was arguing.
Whether at some early time the structure of the Universe was unstable in no way invalidates the concept that ‘c’ is a fundamental property.
If the MAX speed of light is not a fundamental property of the Universe then why is there a unitary correlation between ‘c’, frequency, and wavelength of the entire electromagnetic spectrum?
ibelieve2
Said this on February 16th, 2007 at 11:44pm:Hello, I was just wondering if Kent was moved? We haven’t heard anything from him for a while & was wondering how he is doing? If he’s been moved could you please let us know? I wrote a letter to him but am waiting for him to be moved so it doesnt get lost in the shuffle of things.
JASON: I would also like to respond to Jason’s comment on why Matthew & Luke are not the same…BUT they are. The response was not only correct to your question, I will further it by saying these two men are different. What one felt was revelant to reveal the other did not. There would be no need to put the 4 Gospels in the Bible if they were all exactly the same. Different people wrote them because they had different things that stood out to them.
If two people go to see the same movie, they are going to tell you different scenes from the movie they thought was interesting or funny. Neither account will be exactly the same, but both accounts will be correct, but with variations.
Hope this helps.
Blessings!!!!
ibelieve2
Said this on February 17th, 2007 at 12:16am:Eric,
I think the lady above might be right in saying the blog is a wonderful idea after the sentencing but may not be in the best interest of your family at the present time. It could go either way…it may help…it may not…but to be on the safe side, I think I would play on the side of caution. This is not to say Kent should admit fault in any way, but for your mother’s sake it might be best.
Concerned & Blessings,
ibleive2!
ccherrett
Said this on February 17th, 2007 at 3:23am:Samphire:
Who is paying for your time to come in here are talk all your evolution talk. Are you funded? What is your real name and what do you do?
I have been amazed at the time you are spending in here and the detail and length of your posts. It seems odd that someone would spend so much time in this blog.
For real, why are you here? Are you funded? Do you have associations with The National Center for Science Education or and other organization?
Would really like to know. You sure seem to be overly concerned.
Thanks
FuManchu
Said this on February 17th, 2007 at 6:26am:Gorge:
Gary was indeed talking about Greek – I just pointed out that the word comes from Latin. It’s easy to confuse the two, but I can assure you that ‘inspire’ is not a Greek word. Not that it really matters, of course.
theguyfromaustralia
Said this on February 17th, 2007 at 9:57am:Eric… This is important
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvLax7U-m4g
There are recorded phone calls with you your sister, your dad, and (I think) your Mom too… from Jail.
Oh man the Government makes me angry! It’s so sad how you guys are being treated! They want to hammer home their stupid evolution millions of years theory
take care mate..
GORGE
Said this on February 17th, 2007 at 2:16pm:FuManChu
So you battled your way through the bad grammer and double copy/pasteing,haha
Thats shows a good determination and charater in itself
I hope you had a look at the scriptures too,FuManChu
GORGE
Said this on February 17th, 2007 at 2:48pm:We will be praying tomorrow at church for the Hovinds,all at drdino,the people who write on the blog(including samps,fu and Satanrca) .
Remember to keep trusting in our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ,fixing your eyes on that heavenly city.Your DVDs are a real blessing
Some scriptures for your encourageing and BUILDING up.
.
Psalm 91,92,93
Romans 8
McGurk
Said this on February 17th, 2007 at 3:34pm:You can argue and explain about the tax matters all you want, but IN THE EYES OF THE UNSAVED WORLD
Mr. Hovind is just another greedy televangelist.
WeinerTd
Said this on February 17th, 2007 at 4:50pm:Dear Eric,
I just read JR Turner’s blog from a few days ago in which he refers to the “volunatary” tax premise argument that the tax patriots use to justify not paying taxes. Years ago there were a few Christians who taught this in our church. Frankly, I do not have the time to research the issue out in an exhaustive fashion. I barely have time to research the eternal life issues that are far more relevant to fulfilling the Great Commision.
But Even if the “Christian” tax protestors are right about the voluntary nature of the system, they are dead wrong. Jesus tells them to pay their taxes anyway “lest you offend them.” (See previous posts for Scriptures.) We are to seek God’s kingdom first. Not paying taxes not only violates Jesus direct command to the issue, it distracts people from keeping the message of God’s kingdom front and center. Jesus and the message of special creation is no longer the primary message of CSE that reaches the masses. Instead it is Kent Hovinds run ins with the IRS that has stolen the headlines. That is a tragedy.
Todd Weiner
FuManchu
Said this on February 17th, 2007 at 6:21pm:Jason:
I certainly appreciate that some people may see my role here as kicking a man when he’s down. To an extent, however, Kent Hovind’s horizontal nature is irrelevant. I didn’t start criticising Kent because I scented blood in the water; I criticised him just as much while his ‘ministry’ was going strong. Similarly, I doubt you came here to defend a man in prison purely because he was in prison; you came here to defend a man whose opinions you already agreed with. I was simply saying that it is my contention that somebody with neither theological nor scientific knowledge could nevertheless drive a coach and horses through the holes in Kent Hovind’s reasoning, without making any comment at all on the quality of his science or his religious beliefs.
From your point of view, his heart may have been in the right place; I was hoping you might admit to wishing that you could have found a Creationism advocate who combined good intentions with an equally sound execution of those intentions.
For his wife, I have sympathy. For his family, I have sympathy. I even have some sympathy for the man himself, in the face of a ten year prison term. But I don’t intend to delude myself as to his flaws. This is, after all, a man whose own slides don’t always back up the claims he makes as he stands in front of them; a man who shows audiences pictures of his family beforehand so they’ll assume he’s sound and decent; a man who conflates a biological theory with Nazism and Communism; a man who is convinced that the government will have microchips inserted into our heads to bring about the New World Order; a man so self-delusional that even while languishing in jail he has the callous cheek to inform his wife that maybe SHE should change if she wants their marriage to survive; a man who establishes his scientific credentials for his videos by posing in a lab coat holding beakers of dry ice and food colouring; a man who routinely leaves out the word ‘Christian’ when telling people (even other Christians) about his PhD in Christian Education that apparently qualifies him to talk about science; a man whose other scientific qualification is that he “taught high school science for 15 years” at a school he founded himself; a man who falsely filed for bankruptcy to avoid paying tax; a man whose practical demonstrations have involved flicking rubber bands and pouring water into sandpits; a man who loves to recount chance encounters with scientists whose names he forgets but who always end up looking foolish after attempting to put forward oddly simplistic-sounding arguments; a man who actually uses the abysmal “was your grandfather a monkey?” line – with humorous photograph! – at least a century after it ceased even to be funny, let alone relevant; a man whose $250,000 challenge to ‘prove’ evolution imposes conditions under which it would be impossible to prove that there is a mug on the desk in front of me (and there is); a man who advises against taking manmade medications since they’re not biblical; who cannot conceive of more than two worldviews at once; who refuses to take part in any debate that isn’t oral and in front of an audience, as if science were an academic version of American Idol; whose PhD thesis has been exposed as the shoddiest piece of writing since William Topaz McGonagall’s ‘The Tay Bridge Disaster’; and who is now a convicted criminal.
This is the man you have come here to defend – and if I got a little carried away with all that, I hope at least that you may understand why.
CMarychurch
Said this on February 17th, 2007 at 7:03pm:“As Hovind said in one of the jail audio recordings; “If I am crucified, I want people to know why. I want my message to continue. I want people to say wow – Hovind was right! Lets spread these tapes around!””
And also note Hovind compared himself to George Washington. Sometimes reality and Hovind are lucky to be in the same room.
558_thoughts
Said this on February 17th, 2007 at 7:10pm:Wow. You posted it. No objectionable material in that one, huh? [See my Feb 14 commment, 6:47 pm.] Well, in the Feb 8 comment I stated my case. If you were looking for truth (still talking to whoever posts these comments), you should have read it, researched it through the links I gave, seen your error, and posted it here to let other people know. Since you kept it off this page, I must conclude that you are not looking for truth, that you suppress the truth when you see it. (On this particular issue anyway.) Therefore I will move on and not bother you anymore. (I’m sure you’ll be thrilled to be rid of me.) I just want to make one thing clear to all the blog readers: I do not agree with the position I put forth in my Feb 5 comment. As for why I posted it and what I do believe, I can’t really say very much without getting blocked by this blog’s malevolent firewall. Since I want to make sure this comment is posted, I will leave it at that. Goodbye.
acts837
Said this on February 18th, 2007 at 9:02am:What Happened To My Beloved America ?
DEAR DR. KENT HOVIND !
I am very sad to hear this news and I do not understand what in the world happened to my beloved America ? What in the world is going on the country which stands for liberty and justice?
However your case reminds me about the story of the apostle and saint Paul, when he was imprissioned. He was in prision with his friend Silas so far as I do remember reading this interesting part of the HOLY SCRIPTURES on purpose.
They gave THANKS unto GOD and they loved to sing before the LORD our GOD and the THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. And you may remember, that the LORD GOD sent an earthquake and all doors have been openend.
And there was a certain jailer which was on the way to kill himself. Paul and his friends cried unto this office “Do not kill – thyself”. And they explained the officer or jailer HOW TO GET SAVED THROUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
Dr. Kent Hovind & Family, THE GRACE, PEACE, MERCY AND COMPASSION OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST be with you also and may you reach many fellow prisoners, jailers and workers in the federal prison as possible, that THEY MIGHT BELIEVE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND TO COME TO KNOW TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
Dr. Kent Hovind & Family, MAY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WILL COMFORT you also, no matter where you are preaching the GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, may in Germany, may in the US, may in the prison.
After some accidents and diseases I have been three months in hospital as a patient some years ago and I felt like in a prison. It was a difficult time for me. After some accidents and diseases I am restricted in mobility which sometimes feels like a prison also – –well it feels like it, PLEASE DO NOT FORGET, that our LORD JESUS CHRIST IS GOOD – HE IS GOOD AND HE IS ABLE TO TAKE AWAY THE PAIN AND SORROW !
ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD. — May you will be free and your wife, sooner as authorities have told you. HOWEVER DO NOT FORGET TO VISIT THE PEOPLE IN PRSION WHICH NEED THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.
When I have heard the news, I felt sad and sorry, but may GOD wanted to preach the gospel on a different mission field only for a while, as the Saint Paul did in the past.
Now it makes me a little HAPPY, THAT MORE PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED in a location, no one wants to go to preach. This could be a sign and a gift of our LORD JESUS CHRIST. Unfortunely I do not know the thoughts of our living GOD, but this could be, that HE is using you to reach some poor people. no matter if prisoners, jailers or other workers in the federal prison.
auke
Said this on February 18th, 2007 at 3:08pm:Dear dr. Hovind and family,
I was stunned at reading the news about the trial and you being sent to prison. I want to let you know I’m praying for you. I live in Holland and I will try to inform people around me about this situation.
You’re teachings are most valuable and have been a great help for building and strengthening my faith and that of people around me. I can freely participate in science without having to struggle with my beliefs. This situation is an encouragement for me to share the truth even more.
We’re praying
Auke
Bryan Acred
Said this on February 19th, 2007 at 7:47am:Brother Hovind,
You and your family are in our prayers. We thank God for you.
Until His nets are full,
Bryan Acred
GORGE
Said this on February 19th, 2007 at 10:04am:Dear FumanCHU,
I do think you got carried away,the old blood running vemonsly to the head dear boy,
I think his slides show nothing apart from truthfuly showing he is married and has a family.big deal hows that fraudulant.
I thought Hitler had a survival of the fitest list.In his book he shows-blondies at the top,then down to the bottom of their list the 2 “apejew”-as he wickedly termed them.kd is right he was an evolutionist.
Communism is a atheistic belife with evolution as one of its foundation stones.kd is right
I would be very supprised to hear him say n.w.order are going to implant chips,please there are tons of info on the new world order that take alot of explaining away if theres no such thingt-its a fact and commimg in fast.
I only heard the tapes for 2 mins and then stopped listening.I came to the conclusion this was a private call between a man and his wife in a exceptually stressed situation,and its just shows what a pack of wolves (youed prob’ agree being an evo)people are,to get enjoyment or/and info from listening to it,so I can’t comment on that.Ofcoarse Im not disputing relevent bodies for legal resons listening,just the blood hungry puplic.
How do you do under high stress with your wife,do not say things you dont mean?Its always the ones we love the most isnt it?
He talks in full about his phd on is questions and answers dvd.So what anyway,I dont get the point.
If he had no idea what he was talking about surely someone of the multitude of evolutionists could of shot him down in the debate.Whats wrong with orel debate,His heart is to reach the lost so he trys to reach as manyu as p[ossible,hence the audience,what the prob have evos got something to hide?Most democracies would crumble without it Oral debate.When the police interview,it’s not done over e-mail,its done face to face.When an employer interviews he wants to see your face and talk.As long as its done properly,with time to prepare and everything recorded,oral debate is by far the best way to discuss varying belifs or anything else for that matter.
Hidden in cleaver talk the evolutionist basicly does belive an ape is his grandpa,whether funny or not still a fact.
Surely for $250,000 someone by now would of claimed it,but you know as well as me evolution can not be proved.It just says evolutions fact in the classroom to young minds.Hang on is that not called lieing,do you think thats exceptble,Fu?.
kh has talked about the corruption of the big pharmacutical companies,but I’ve not heard him say dont take drugs because there not in the bible.He has talked about the benifit of eating various foods-I dont know if any of its true,but he gives websites for people to look and study,whats the harm done,I think your going over the top.
I think Kh is a very itelligent man,who probably has thought about more than 2 world veiws,besides you can not prove that to be the case-its just what you think and you dont know him.
Yes now he is a convicted crim,I’m goner wait to see their side,I find very hard to belive its anything more than lack of wisdom ,but yes your right.
For that reason though dont you think you should give the man his wife and family a break.If he is guilty he is certainly paying a heavey price,and I think that is morer than adequate punishment,without all the hurtfull comments found on the internet.
I am glad you are here FuManCHU BUT If you could just come out of attack mode and see its not fair what you are doing,theres a family involed and theres people writeing on this blog who are heartbroken whats happened to their much loved Ken Hovind
JohnLake
Said this on February 19th, 2007 at 3:49pm:GaryMurray Said this Feb 15 at 4:09pm –
JohnLakes, here is my issue with your reply to my post… My post was 4 pages long in Microsoft Word. It was full of legitimate evidence which presented the speed of light isn’t a constant…..I guess what I’m saying is you lunged, only when you saw an opportunity at weakness, but you never even touched on the overall topic.
Gary,
I apologize for not replying to the overall topic of your post (Feb. 14 at 8:58am). I didn’t realize that was a requirement. To make things right, here is my comment about the rest of your post;
I found it quite unremarkable, typical circular apologetics. There is no point in arguing with your statements, as your reasoning is based on The Bible proving The Bible.
BTW, my reply was to a post, in which you wrote nothing about the speed of light.
GaryMurray Said this Feb 15 at 4:09pm -
I thought it was an interesting point to be given to believing csebloggers.
OK, the next time I read one of your posts, I will regard anything marked with “NOTE:” is only for the eyes/minds of Believers&trade.
Also, I now know that;
- For Believers&trade: A referenced Bible verse (context not required) provides strong and indisputable evidence* that The Bible is scientifically accurate.
- For the rest of us (Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Catholics, Hindi, Believers&trade with non-KJV® Bibles, etc.): A referenced Bible verse (context from non-referenced verses required) cannot be held to any scientific accuracy or scrutiny, and the verse(s) can only be read for the metaphors**.
Samphire,
Thank you for your well written comments, they will be missed. Oh, and make sure you cash all those checks from the NCSE, I understand that “the end is near……”
JohnLake
*Because The Bible says so!
**Unless a Certified Believer&trade tell us otherwise.
Teno
Said this on February 19th, 2007 at 10:01pm:McGurk said: You can argue and explain about the tax matters all you want, but IN THE EYES OF THE UNSAVED WORLD
Mr. Hovind is just another greedy televangelist.
In the eyes of the unsaved world the apostles were ignorant fools and Jesus was a deluded liar (despite the fact they paid their taxes – a lot of good that did!). Since when should we care what the devil’s crowd thinks of us if we are doing right by God?
The people who think he is a greedy televangelist are willfully ignorant. Bro. Hovind allows people to copy his videos for free. Untold thousands of reproductions are floating around that Hovind hasn’t made a cent off, in fact they prevented him from making money that he rightfully earned.
Bro. Hovind put the money back into the ministry and has plans for further growth. He lives in the same modest house and drives the same modest cars. He doesn’t live like a rich man, he lives modestly. Anyone who doubts this should travel to his place in Pensacola and check it out. If you haven’t checked it out firsthand, here is an admonition for you to shut up until you do:
“He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.” Proverbs 18:13
samuel
Said this on February 20th, 2007 at 9:35am:CMarychurch:
My mother and father taught me many useful things. They taught me about God, they brought me up on the rock, the word of God, the Bible. They gave me a good example of how to live your life as a Christian, how the road to happieness and life was through Love and Charity. How eternal life was very simple but that some of the worlds richest and most “intelligent” men and women would find it the hardest to get there. (I’m not condemning anyone to hell here by the way – God is the only righteous judge of mankind).
They also taught me many things of common sence and humanitarian value, such as manners, looking before you leap, listening to other peoples opinions, dont judge a book by its cover, and much more. One thing in specific that always stuck in my mind was: If you havent got anything nice to say, dont say anything at all. Of course we all, myself included, arent perfect and I’m sure we have all said things we probably shouldnt have. We are all sinners.
However, some of the comments CMarychurch has been posting on here are not simply slips of the tongue, it seems to me that he is deliberately & actively persecuting Kent Hovind. This strikes me as being some kind of personal vendetta held against him by CMarychurch as he hasnt come on this blog searching for answers, truth or a positive debate, just to put him down as much as possible.
I must say this CMarychurch if you are reading, if your parents or gaurdians didnt teach you some of these fundamental values as a child its not too late. If you have been deprived of a decent upbringing, deprived of love and charity its not too late. Even if you have strayed so far from what is right, what is good, and the truth you cant even distinguish what is right anymore, its not too late.
God loves you, he loves you so much he even sent his only begotten son to die for us. All you have to do is believe in Jesus and recognise you are a sinner. (John 3:16) For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ. Salvation is a gift, it is gained through grace and faith, not of works.
I just wish people would get off Kent Hovinds back for a change, stop wasting there time trying to drag him down and take that very same time and put it into something positive.
I have thought of a few activites for anyone here who comes to blast Kent Hovind. (You really are wasting your time trying to discredit, blacken and tarr his name – the people who know the true God, the God of Love, do not need mans blessings and aprovals to listen to what the Lord has to say through his prophets, servants and children.)
Activity #1 : Go take your dog for an extra long walk if you have one, im sure the added exercise wont be bad for the both of you.
Activity #2 : Ask your family, neighbours or friends if they need your help or assistance at all in any way shape or form.
Activity #3 : Go clean your house from top to bottom, even if youve already cleaned, I’m sure theres some dirt lurking around somewhere that you’ve missed.
Activity #4 : Take a walk to your local shops and smile at everyone you come accross, even stop and talk to one of them if you feel the urge.
Activity #5 : Make a telephone call to one of your friends, family, or loved ones just to tell them you care about them and keep them in your thoughts.
Activity #6 : Go back and think of all the comments, posts, blogs etc you have made recently which were in a negative attitude, then try to take on the attitude of “the glass is half full” instead of “the glass is half empty” and go back and repost or requote.
Activity #7 : Pray this simple prayer of salvation below and watch your life, outlook and attitude change before your very eyes:
Dear Lord, I know I am a tiny spec in comparison to the greatness of the universe. I know I have done things that I probably shouldnt have in my life, that I have hurt others and have hurt you. I recognise that I am a sinner and that I need forgiveness. I pray right here and now that you will give me your free gift of salvation through your son Jesus Christ. Please come into my heart and life and help me to love you and to love others, please shine through me so that your love can reach others, even through little old me. In Jesus name, Amen.
I could carry on but I have to go now.
God bless and keep you all, all my love,
Sam.
Jason
Said this on February 20th, 2007 at 9:45am:Hi Fumanchu
I appreciate you being honest about your feelings towards Kent Hovind, although I don’t recall asking anyone to like him. Your list of criticisms of his character are interesting, I’m sure it won’t be any surprise to you that I find at least a few of them unfair, however if that’s what you believe, I don’t see any requirement on my part to try and redeem him to your eyes.
I wonder what’s God’s opinion of Kent is? (given that he exists, (Christian view)). I would guess that God (knowing everything), could write a list of things to condemn Kent Hovind that would put your list to shame.
The list would not only condemn Kent Hovind, but probably every member of his family tree going right back to Adam. (I suspect God’s list about me (as an individual) would be longer than Kent’s 
)
I thought I was in agreement with most atheists in believing it is impossible to prove a faith based belief using purely naturalistic scientific investigation. Therefore, I don’t believe it would be any surprise to you that I might feel I could argue that my daughter, without any real training or qualification can and does find large holes in the evolutionary faith and reasoning. All this just by asking questions and seeking answers.
I like Kent Hovind, I like that he allows you to copy his work (maybe you wouldn’t want to), however, lots of Christian teachers charge for their work, and there is no way around the copywrite without breaking the law.
Neither Kent nor his ministry has received a single penny from myself or family. His work has been given freely to me & my family, & I am grateful (maybe one day I might give on a monetary level, but for now I give my support verbally).
There are a few media personalities which I too find distasteful, so I relate (to an extent) to your feelings. When I come across people who I don’t agree with or their style grates upon me, I don’t tune in, watch or generally get involved, I don’t see the point in being irritated.
Is there a hope that there could be a discussion, between us, not based upon tit for tat arguments?
I might not agree with your faith in evolution, but i’m sort of hoping there may be more to be gaind by this dialog than a fruitless exchange of words between two people out of 6.5 billoin people worldwide.
Question, most of the world believes in something spiritual in one way or another. Do you think scientists are completely right or seeing the whole picture when the spiritual is eliminated from their beliefs? (you don’t have to answer or even talk, but I don’t want to argue).
Lots of love
Jason x
Samphire
Said this on February 20th, 2007 at 10:12am:ccherrett said this on Feb 17:
“Samphire: Who is paying for your time to come in here are talk all your evolution talk. Are you funded?”
That is for me to know and for someone on this blog to invent yet another conspiracy theory about.
“What is your real name and what do you do? I have been amazed at the time you are spending in here and the detail and length of your posts. It seems odd that someone would spend so much time in this blog.”
Just trying to point out a few of the many inanities which litter this blog.
“For real, why are you here? Are you funded? Do you have associations with The National Center for Science Education or and other organization? Would really like to know. You sure seem to be overly concerned.”
Apparently, I am not as concerned as the increasingly cognitively disassociated KH (now re-inventing himself as a flowerpot) who thinks the subject is so important that he is willing to give up what could be an otherwise useful life to promulgate the nonsensical belief that, contrary to all empirical evidence, the Universe is only 6,000 years old. From the evidence of many of the posts on this blog, there are a lot of people out there who do not seem to have the relatively limited education required to recognise the “plain as a pikestaff” falsity of the counterfeit Doctor’s plagiarised absurdities.
Why is this important? The US is the most powerful and dangerous state in the World. At the moment, having wrecked Iraq with our small assistance, it is rattling sabres at Iran in a rather alarming manner. With a large portion of Americans believing in a relatively imminent Rapture (GaryMurray says above that his loins are already twitching in eager anticipation) and with the White House being occupied by someone who may think likewise it is important for my children’s future that such ludicrous superstitions and delusions are resisted with some rationality for fear that they may become self-fulfilling.
Also, I may just like a bit of fun from time to time.
GaryMurray
Said this on February 20th, 2007 at 4:18pm:1. JohnLake
Said this at 3:49pm:
Gary,
I apologize for not replying to the overall topic of your post (Feb. 14 at 8:58am). I didn’t realize that was a requirement. To make things right, here is my comment about the rest of your post;
You didn’t realize it was a requirement, because I don’t recall I stated that it was. You are welcome to comment about that specific post, but what you erred to miss is that it isn’t a post, but a thread. It is a continuation of a discussion over multiple posts via multiple people. This is why I specifically said I had a problem with your post. I was upset that you would only search the thread and exploit that which you felt was a contradiction in the Bible. The discussion was not an argument that the Bible wasn’t accurate when. This leads others to the opinion that you are only here to bash the Bible, in a Bible believing community, rather than open your mind to evidence that might just change the way you think. Most here, including Samphire, actually listen to both sides of the argument and apply effort to understand the other side instead of arrogantly taking one side and assuming it is the only final authority. Even by this, your follow-up thread, it is a prime example that even though I provided a clear explanation of the Bible and the hydrologic cycle as in Isaiah 55:10, you still provided no refutation to the contrary, and provide no proof that the evidence in hand was accurately accounted for in the Bible.
_____________________________________
JohnLakes:
I found it quite unremarkable, typical circular apologetics. There is no point in arguing with your statements, as your reasoning is based on The Bible proving The Bible.
Ah, by your statement above it clearly indicates that you never read the entirety of the thread, otherwise you would have realized that the ‘circular apologetics’ you claim were present in my statements concerning light isn’t a constant, (those which you believe are not worthy of arguing) were actually statements quoted by the article sources I had originally posted. Remember, this is your science that disproves your founding theory that the universe is millions of years old because we are able to see snapshots of a past star due to the speed of light traveling at a constant distance over time. It isn’t my science or evidence I have supplied by the Bible.
________________________________________
JohnLakes:
BTW, my reply was to a post, in which you wrote nothing about the speed of light.
I’ll agree with you. I never wrote anything about the speed of light. I posted recent scientific articles from prestigious universities, in different parts of the world, where the study of the speed of light in a vacuous environment was found NOT to be constant, by their own laboratory research. This was the topic of discussion in this thread prior to Samphire cunningly switching it, thereby avoiding the evidence given in said articles. I merely answered his question while waiting his response to the articles I posted.
The sources of my statements in relation to the original topic of discussion, speed of light is not a constant, has yet to be refuted or answered by anyone. Instead, the discussion was led to an alternate purpose; ‘why did God do the things he did?’ A marvelous debate tactic, whereby one deviates from the topic to avoid evidence that might disprove their side.
______________________________________
OK, the next time I read one of your posts, I will regard anything marked with “NOTE:” is only for the eyes/minds of Believers&trade.
Or you could just assume it was a note that followed an original topic, that which you completely denied to comment on. This somewhat gives evidence that you are ‘blog trolling’, searching for that one weak spot you can find to inject your comments because you have a grievance towards creationists and Bible believers. Unfortunately, the one contribution you made on this board (or at least this thread), was easily refuted by further edification of the original source, The Bible.
________________________________________________
JohnLakes:
Also, I now know that;
- For Believers&trade: A referenced Bible verse (context not required) provides strong and indisputable evidence* that The Bible is scientifically accurate.
No, actually modernized science over the past few hundred years has proven that the scriptures found in the Bible, in regards to life and matter in the universe, is in line with scientific theories and discoveries.
You see, we Bible believers never needed science to prove the Bible was scientifically accurate. We just believed the Bible. Its science that has slowly seen over years of study, that what is listed in the Bible in regards to science, is scientifically accurate.
JohnLakes:
For the rest of us (Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Catholics, Hindi, Believers&trade with non-KJV® Bibles, etc.): A referenced Bible verse (context from non-referenced verses required) cannot be held to any scientific accuracy or scrutiny, and the verse(s) can only be read for the metaphors**.
Your inability to accept the Bible because it was written by something you can’t explain with science will be no excuse judgment day. I love you, and pray for all lost sinners, but I am not here to convict you to believe the Bible. If the Holy Ghost hasn’t convicted you thus far, there is nothing I can say will manage it. I only stand firm against false teachings and offer scripture to offset these false teachings, that which bend and weaken the faith of young believers. I will go to the mat to make sure young Bible believers aren’t swayed by a heretical religion such as Evolution. I strongly support science, but evolution is not science when results from one lab to the next varies with such a sizable margin of error as has been seen and provided here in this blog thus far. Please understand my stance, and now you may better understand my statements.
Again I am not debating who is right and who is wrong. I feel there is conclusive enough evidence that the Bible’s account for a world wide flood is accurate, and that the universe was created, not evolved. I have never seen any evidence to the contrary, though I have listened and observed both sides of this argument. I love you, JohnLakes, as a friend. I wanna see you saved, I want to see you ask Jesus Christ to save your soul so you can join me (and hopefully Samphire) in Heaven someday. I’m praying for both of you!
God Bless, JohnLakes.
joshtriangle
Said this on February 20th, 2007 at 5:47pm:Hi all. I see this discussion has gone to yet another origins debate. Before I briefly get into that I just want to say “Hello Kent! I am praying for you.”
I met Kent at a Steeling the Mind conference. Well, just like every single person from the beginning of time, I’ll say it in a whisper, shhhhh, “Kent is not perfect”.
And God uses imperfect people. Amen?
Kent has such gifts – to speak publicly and boldly for God! I won’t get into the supposed imperfections – just this one thing Kent…. be humbled!!! And in that, more strength will be given!
Now, we almost missed a VERY CRITICAL item from Mr. Samphire…. at least part of the reasoning for his posts is that HE CARES ABOUT THE FUTURE!
Now, let’s NOT get into who cares about the future more. Who cares about their kids futures more – “us or them”…
Let’s agree on this – there are at least some of us (hopefully all!) who CARE about the future – the babies being born today, other people who are suffering. Oh come on we all know the many needful folks in the world… OK.
Here’s the real deal though. Listen. Here it is. Ready? HOW DO WE ACHIEVE PEACE?
Answer?
Well, I am a Christian, and so my answer is: God’s plan will happen.
Are we all arguing about how to achieve peace? Are we all arguing on how to help others? Are we all arguing for our own benefit of being right? Why do we argue about origins?
It surely helps to learn by debating. Absolutely. I have learned an incredible amount by listening to all kinds of debates – origins, theology…
But what gives us the passion to continue? And again for what end purpose?
If it is to save the world, then please take some time and really read the Scriptures. The question to answer is not “HOW?” – the question is “WHY?”.
“How?” will provide lots of learning, and we must continue to ask it. It’s awesome!
But if you are not asking “WHY?”, then it’s all for NAUGHT.
God’s Word is a letter to you that answers “WHY?”. Of course that’s just coming from another believer. But if you have ANY notions that there is God, then you may want to seriously consider WHY He formed you, and everything. Look into your loved ones eyes and ask why?
Peace.
Samphire
Said this on February 21st, 2007 at 12:21pm:Hi JoshTriangle
Was the Steeling the Mind conference you were at the same one which had the Texan preacher, Gary Frazier, saying “War will come at the end. That kind of blows away the world peace crowd. The truth is we are never going to have world peace. God says there will be wars and desolation to the end.” – What a nice chap. So much nicer than that guy who said “Blessed are the peacemakers”.
At the end of the same conference KH rallied the troops “to save souls, vote Republican, and join a local militia.” It’s not surprising the IRS later took his guns away – but too late to stop KH shooting himself in the foot.
Kind regards
Samphire
GaryMurray
Said this on February 21st, 2007 at 2:47pm:Samphire
Said this at 12:21pm:
Was the Steeling the Mind conference you were at the same one which had the Texan preacher, Gary Frazier, saying “War will come at the end. That kind of blows away the world peace crowd. The truth is we are never going to have world peace. God says there will be wars and desolation to the end.” – What a nice chap. So much nicer than that guy who said “Blessed are the peacemakers”.
Samphire,
By your statement it seems you believe world peace is a realistic possibility. I would like you to explain how you can conceive of this.
It’s evident by your previous posts that you believe in evolution. Well, evolution is the process of adaptation of survival or survival of the fittest. If indeed you believe that world peace is conceivable, doesn’t this directly contrast with the idea of world evolution and the ’strong will survive’? After all, in order for the strong to survive, prevail, overcome, there has to be some type of diminishing of the weaker species. That would constitute war between ’species’ wouldn’t it?
If I am wrong in my assumption that you believe world peace is achievable, then you actually believe that the nature of man is to destroy itself by its own creations. Thus causing wars, catastrophes and desolation. If this statement is true, then you have ridiculed a man who made a statement that you agree with. Why the ridicule? Is it there because his belief and motives are driven by a creationist view?
Honestly, there will never be ‘world peace’. Either in the world of a uniformatarianist or the world of a creationist. Perhaps maybe, in their minds?? The only difference in the two is one is a watered down version of destruction which label the extinction of life a wonderful natural cycle of evolution, whereas the other is just plain and realistic and straight forward without the ooey gooey center…
Still praying for ya,
Gary
JohnLake
Said this on February 22nd, 2007 at 1:18am:GaryMurray
Said this at 4:18pm:
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You didn’t realize it was a requirement, because I don’t recall I stated that it was. You are welcome to comment about that specific post, but what you erred to miss is that it isn’t a post, but a thread. It is a continuation of a discussion over multiple posts via multiple people. This is why I specifically said I had a problem with your post. I was upset that you would only search the thread and exploit that which you felt was a contradiction in the Bible.
I am fully aware that there are several topics being discussed in this comment section. (A thread is a list comments connected by a subject line or topic, as you would find in a forum or discussion board.) I did not search these posts looking for anything to exploit. I have been reading the comments of this blog entry since its inception and I have been reading the entire blog for quite some time. I have contributed a few posts to this and other entries. Most, if not all, of my posts have been concerning the charges & trail of KH. I have not been trolling or bashing Believers. I have been replying to or commenting on posts where I had an opinion and/or information related to the topic. None of my post (except for maybe my last post) has been mean spirited. None of my posts stated my beliefs one way or another about religion, creationism or The Bible. Go ahead a do a search.
I posted my comment about your note concerning Isaiah 55:10 because, I was prompted to look it up and read it for myself by your ‘Note:’.
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NOTE: Verse 10 of this chapter gives strong evidence that the Bible is scientifically accurate as it pertains to vegetation life and its hydration requirements. Interesting reading for scoffers who believe the Bible to be scientifically inaccurate.
I had no prior knowledge of that verse and took it as you had mentioned it (I also read verses 8 and 9 that you had also quoted.) I did not read verse 11 at the time. Had I read verse 11, I would have understood the metaphor, but that was not the assertion of your comment. It would not have made a difference in my opinion/post in regards to your statement. You were the one referencing the scientific accuracy of the verse(s) not the meaning of the scripture.
I replied because the verse that I read (AS I READ IT) was not scientifically accurate as you had claimed in your post.
I even agreed with you that it did not go into any technical details of plant hydration.
Not only did I read the verse you referenced, I look up the word “thither” to be sure didn’t mistake its meaning. I even read two versions of The Bible to make sure that I had a good understanding of what was being said. That apparently prompted your tirade concerning non-KJV Bibles.
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The discussion was not an argument that the Bible wasn’t accurate when. This leads others to the opinion that you are only here to bash the Bible, in a Bible believing community, rather than open your mind to evidence that might just change the way you think. Most here, including Samphire, actually listen to both sides of the argument and apply effort to understand the other side instead of arrogantly taking one side and assuming it is the only final authority.
This discussion has been about a lot of topics, you were the one that brought up the verse and the scientific accuracy. I did not bash The Bible, I posted my opinion concerning the verse you referenced as being scientifically accurate.
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Even by this, your follow-up thread, it is a prime example that even though I provided a clear explanation of the Bible and the hydrologic cycle as in Isaiah 55:10, you still provided no refutation to the contrary, and provide no proof that the evidence in hand was accurately accounted for in the Bible.
OK, I did not explicitly or narrowly define the form of water, as you did in your reply. I guess if I were to disregard my 3rd grade knowledge of how thing work and look at the verse in the most simplistic of ways, you are correct.
That being said, your definition scientifically accurate equates to; rain falls, snow falls, plants get water. Careful Gary, don’t go too far out on that limb.
Scientifically accurate? – OK, sure.
Scientifically meaningful? – not so much
Again, I’m referring to your assertion that the verse is scientifically accurate, not that it has other meanings.
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Ah, by your statement above it clearly indicates that you never read the entirety of the thread, otherwise you would have realized that the ‘circular apologetics’ you claim were present in my statements concerning light isn’t a constant, (those which you believe are not worthy of arguing) were actually statements quoted by the article sources I had originally posted. Remember, this is your science that disproves your founding theory that the universe is millions of years old because we are able to see snapshots of a past star due to the speed of light traveling at a constant distance over time. It isn’t my science or evidence I have supplied by the Bible.
I have read the entire “Thread”, but my reply was to a part of your post answering Samphire’s “Loaded question”. Read your post FEB 14 @ 8:58, there is nothing in that post concerning the speed of light being constant. The post that you entered a day earlier did have the quotes and links to the articles about the constant of the speed of light. Which, by the way, I did read. I just did post a reply. Its just not an area of comfort for making comments. And on another note, I still haven’t stated my beliefs one way or another. The science in my post was the Water Cycle, not Evolution. You came to the conclusion that I’m a evolutionist based on two post.
The circular apologetic I was referring to was your answer to Samphire’s “Loaded question” using The Bible to prove the Bible. In essence; The Bible tells us everything we need to know, if the Bible does not give us the answer, then we don’t need to know the answer, why not? Because The Bible tells us we are not capable of knowing the answers.
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This was the topic of discussion in this thread prior to Samphire cunningly switching it, thereby avoiding the evidence given in said articles. I merely answered his question while waiting his response to the articles I posted.
The sources of my statements in relation to the original topic of discussion, speed of light is not a constant, has yet to be refuted or answered by anyone. Instead, the discussion was led to an alternate purpose; ‘why did God do the things he did?’ A marvelous debate tactic, whereby one deviates from the topic to avoid evidence that might disprove their side.
Just for the record,
I replied to your post from Feb 14th @ 8:58am which was a reply to
Samphire’s post Feb 13 @ 10:52am: which was a reply to
David’s post on Feb 13th @ 7:57am.
So, it looks to me like you are the one that interjected your comments into a conversation between Samphire and David, hijacking that conversation and running with the topic ‘why did God do the things he did?’
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Or you could just assume it was a note that followed an original topic, that which you completely denied to comment on. This somewhat gives evidence that you are ‘blog trolling’, searching for that one weak spot you can find to inject your comments because you have a grievance towards creationists and Bible believers. Unfortunately, the one contribution you made on this board (or at least this thread), was easily refuted by further edification of the original source, The Bible.
You might want to do that search; this was not “my one contribution” to this entry or to others in the CSEBlog. And just because I am not as prolific as you, does not mean that I am trolling or don’t have something to contribute. I’ll admit to being a bit snarky in my last post, but being accused of trolling or “plucking one piece of coal” did not put me in the best of moods.
I posted my opinion of your comment without malice or name calling. You could have offered your “edification” in the same way.
As for refuting my contribution, you did so by reducing the scientific value of you reference to “rain falls, plants get water”. Since irrigation systems had been around long before Isaiah was written, your claim that scientifically accuracy and scientific value of “rain falls, plants get water” is pretty weak.
Yes, I know the Bible is not a science book, but it was your claim of scientific accuracy.
JohnLake
That’s just one Lake, thanks.
Samphire
Said this on February 22nd, 2007 at 5:18am:Hi, Gary,
No, I do not believe that unending world peace is a realistic possibility. However, I do believe that country needs to talk to country just as much as neighbour should talk to neighbour to avoid disputes. War must always be the last resort.
Jimmy Carter may not have been your greatest President ever but he was right when he said in 2002 “War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always an evil, never a good. We will not learn how to live together in peace by killing each other’s children.”
As is tediously common amongst the YEC fraternity you misconstrue the meaning of the phrase “Survival of the fittest”. It does not mean “Survival of the Strongest” but “survival of the individual which is most fitted for its environment”. And contrary to what you write, war is not a struggle between species but between members of the same species. As such, given the prevalence of nuclear weapons, it is more likely to be advantageous to the human species in evolutionary terms to ensure war is minimised. To achieve that goal we need the “peace crowd” to use Frazier’s pejorative phrase. Jesus was right when he quoted Plato in stating “Blessed are the peacemakers”.
Of course, Frazier’s view is driven by a YEC agenda. Perhaps his loins are starting to quiver, like yours, at the thought of the Rapture. That is why I wrote in my last post of the danger to civilisation of this evil and possibly self-fulfilling prophesy.
So, as well as praying for me I hope that, unlike your appalling “brother in Christ” Frazier, you are also praying for those who seek peace,
Kind regards
Samphire
joshtriangle
Said this on February 22nd, 2007 at 9:46am:Folks, after posting a few things here and seeking to communicate with brother Hovind that perhaps he may have been allowing his own will to get in the way of God’s… for example the general conspiracy-laden view of the US government and therefore a general anti-establishment streak; I then read my current devotional, and was reminded that sometimes we are just supposed to go with what God directs, although there’s a question of whether God would direct us to promulgate questionable thoughts/ideas in order to accomplish what He plans for us? I suppose my issue is that, it is such an awesome blessing to have Kent Hovind and others like him, standing firm and using their talents to spread the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, so when something questionable enters the picture, and is even arguably off-the-wall, it hurts the ability to make use of the witnessing potential of Kent’s work… I suppose it’s simply the balance of humbleness and boldness? It would seem the only way to keep that balance is by God’s power alone! Through prayer and His word!
Check out:
http://www.rbc.org/utmost/index.php?month=02&day=21&year=07
Peace.
angelsong
Said this on February 22nd, 2007 at 2:29pm:Dear Dr. Hovind;
I think your CSE ministry is awsome! It has enriched my life and strengthened my faith. I am now equipped with a whole lot of information to go out into the world and win souls. To be honest, I think people should just mind their own business and stop trying to attack you and your personal life. I think you are a man after God’s heart. I don’t quite know what my feelings are on the whole IRS and taxes thing, but I know God will deal with you accordingly. Whether you are guilty or innocent of a crime is none of my, or anyone else’s business. My close christian friend’s and family always say “you can’t argue with fruit”. The CSE ministry has soooo much fruit! The bible says “you’ll know them by their fruits” (that is the Fruit of the Holy Spirit – read Galatians chapter 5). I admire your uncomprimising and bold faith in Christ. Whatever is going on with this legal thing is between you and God, and NO ONE else. I understand that as christians we have to be careful as to who we look up to in the church, but to pick on a fellow brother with such a fruitful and truthful anointed ministry is almost sinful in itself. I have to admit sadly that alot of christians (and I have done it myself many times, so I know) are bad for putting expectations on fellow christians that we ourselves can’t even live up to sometimes. There are certain requirements of leaders that the bible talks about, but is Dr. Hovind our pastor? Our deacon? Does he really have any authority over us or has he assumed any? NO! I read this garbage email conversation this James(or Jason, I don’t remember) Smith guy had with Dr. Hovind where he insisted Dr. Hovind tell him whether he repented and asked forgiveness for his “supposed lies” he had in his seminar and the way he would sometimes make fun of the evolutionists. Where does this guy get off?! He kept on insisting Dr. Hovind tell him this. What business is it of his anyway?! And he writes all this self-righteous crap about himself and how he’s a missionary and stuff. Dr. Hovind’s replys were sooooo polite and scriptural and everything. This guy just wouldn’t get off his back. I think this is uncalled for behaviour of a man professing Christ. No wonder this world thinks Christians are so nuts! Thank You Jesus that it’s YOU who saves them and not us!! As far as the rest of the people who aren’t christians are concerned, well…that speaks for itself. If you aren’t for God (and the truth of His Word, which happens to say He created the world in 7 literal 24hr days…His world, His rules) you’re against Him, and against those who are for Him. Dr. Hovind, I and my fellow brothers and sisters in london ontario will be praying for you. God’s will will be God’s will. I pray He be glorified through your life. I pray you would listen to His instruction, and discipline if nessesary and take heed to the Word. Don’t let the devil get you down. In your own words, “it’s not them who are the enemy, they just work for him”. May God richly bless and keep you always. In Jesus’ name, Amen.
And to the rest of you. In the Words of a carpentar who knew what He was talking about: “let him who is without sin, cast the first stone”!
samuel
Said this on February 23rd, 2007 at 9:06am:Samphire:
Regarding the rapture:
Not all Christians believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Personally I do not. Who will then be left to tell everyone else about the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ, and at such an integral time? Who will remain to tell as many people left about the truth? So that they too can join us when the Lord raptures his Children.
I think Christians who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are deceived and are going to have a nasty shock when they realise they will have to endure persecution throughout the tribulation. I suggest any Christians who DO believe in the pre-trib rapture should really study their Bible very closely.
The whole idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is quite selfish and small minded. Do you really think the Lord will simply collect his children without even giving the rest of the world a chance for salvation? Especially when this moment in time, this era, will be the most important and intense span in the history of time, with multiple prophesies being fulfilled all over the world.
Matthew 24:21-31 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
joshtriangle
Said this on February 23rd, 2007 at 10:31am:Samphire do you know the difference between a liberal and someone truly behind freedom and democracy?
Freedom seeks the right of all people to LIVE in peace.
Liberalism seeks the right of all people to DIE in peace.
Why such a claim?
LIFE = light, joy, do undo others…
DEATH = darkness, sin, opposed to God, do whatever you want…
There’s a “fine line” from the (faulty) human perspective – “Hey, it’s MY life… this is a free country… who are YOU to tell me what’s right and wrong…” to “love thy neighbor…”.
A fine line. War sucks. OK, yes, anyone in their right mind agrees. Horrible. Horrors of war.
But take an analogy of it being on a personal level. Person to person. You desire to live peacefully. Someone for some reason decides they would like to kick your butt – to hurt you. You’d like to reason with them. The offender stipulates some things that you must do to not get your butt kicked. OK – we can think of the negotiations, if it even is that civilized, or if you are simply attacked and forced into action (self-defense).
But right there – what happened to freedom? You deciding on whether to comply with the offender – are your freedoms impinged right then and there? Do you stand for your freedom? Or give in “for the sake of peace”.
We can sit in an ivory tower and discuss it over a spot of tea. But get real please. There’s a cost to true freedom, and it is worth every cent.
Those that are weak and feel guilty that some are dying to protect their freedoms should seek a reality check – get over the guilt, and the only way to do that is through God – the Savior – the Messiah.
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
You’re explanation of survival of the fittest? It’s so weak and feeble it’s not worth it.
I find it amazing that so many scientists, what I used to think of as a very independent and open-minded admirable pursuit, are closing their minds to what has and is being discovered on the molecular level re: “intelligent design”. Yeah we can get on to a discussion on that but there are other places to go to read up on it…
You’re not gonna convert anybody here Samphire. What you don’t understand is, when God the Father calls, and you answer and receive His call through His Son Yeshua the Messiah – the Truth is right there and unchanging. You can find a bunch of people to agree and latch on to Darwinism, but that doesn’t affect the truth – PERIOD!
Peace.
xchampion91
Said this on February 23rd, 2007 at 11:57am:samuel,
I understand your position on the rapture but you do err in your logic. Remember the 144,000? They are the ones along with those who come to the realization that the rapture had occurred who will spread the gospel after the taking of the church. The sad thing is for those who come to the realization that Christ took his church will have to die for Him. Listen up non-chrisitans and apostates alike, when the rapture does come and you aren’t in it, to die for Christ is your last chance of salvation. Repeat last chance. That is very important. At that time you will be persecuted horribly and if you confess Christ you will be killed (beheading). Whatever you believe about pre-trib and post-trib is between you and your maker. I think an indepth study of prophecy shows that the rapture is pre-trib. So samuel I believe you are in error here. But don’t believe me. Study and pray and ask the father to show you.
Much love Brother,
xchamp
EndTimes
Said this on February 23rd, 2007 at 11:25pm:Dear Bro. Samuel,
I happen to be one of those so-called “deceived” Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers. I would suggest that you would consider checking out your facts in a better fashion from the manner laid out in the Bible. Specifically, Isaiah 28:9-13; precept upon precept, II Peter 1:20, no private interpretations; II Corinthians 13:1 two or three witnesses; and lastly, I Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things, hold fast that which is good.
To start, you have not provided two or three witnesses nor have you compared line upon line in any manner. Let me help you with a quick study of Matthew 24 and let me cut to the chase lest I fail to show the error of your way and someone less skilled in the Word would take your statement at face value and be led astray. The Pre-Trib Rapture is still the only tenable interpretation of Scriptures despite your statement. The first witness to consider from the verses you quoted gives the whole answer but there are many more to confirm it. Please take a look at Joel 2:30-32, Zechariah 13:8-9, Ezekiel 37: 1-14, and Revelation 7: 1-12 which places Matthew 24:9-31 in the proper perspective of the second Coming for Israel after the battle of Armageddon. That leaves the rest of Matthew 24: 37-51 to picture the Rapture despite many people’s attempts to belay the obvious correlation. Mark 13:34 makes it very clear that these specific verses are spoken to the church to wait for the Son of man (Jesus) on His long journey. I could go on for a great deal of time further but I will not.
My only intent and purpose is to state categorically that your entire treatise is false and dangerous to those not well versed in the Scriptures and thus I will not let your statements stand unchallenged. Please note that it is the 144,000 chosen Jews from the 12 tribes that will witness to the entire world during the tribulation and salvation will be great and heaven will be filled with multitudes by their faithfull witness. I do agree that the church of today has fallen into a complacency that is dangerous and Dr. Hovind’s case is simply one of many warning signs of things to come. The most imperative statement on the time before the Rapture comes from the Lord Himself in Luke 17:28. When we compare this statement and proceed to Genesis 19, we find that Lot was a righteous man that did not separate himself from three things that Abraham did separate from: 1) The abundance of Sodom 2) the wickedness of Sodom 3) the earthly power of Sodom. The third issue is most important for today. The churches of America are directly in bed with the earthly power of America and this will not profit the church of America anymore than it did Lot being a judge in that city. Likewise, we see the prophetic persecution of the church with all 4 quarters of the town coming after us just as they did to Lot. And then the angels brought Lot inside and shut the door and gave the townspeople over to blindness (compare this with II Thessalonians 2:10-12). We find again another proof in these verses of the Pre-trib Rapture. There will be quite enough persecution of the church before the Rapture to keep you from claiming we are selfish.
You are also wrong about salvation in this time as well. It will be done by the faithful Jews who come to the knowledge of Jesus during the tribulation. It is also a marker of the failure of the church to discharge its full duties (see the Lord’s comments on the church of Laodicea, Revelation 3). So Samuel, you have failed to prove all things and hold fast that which is good. May those interested in Bible prophecy learn to search out the truth by keeping what the Bible itself states as laid out in the simple rules of Scripture listed above. If you have acquired your rules of interpretation from common treatises on “hermeneutics” I would suggest that look up the root meaning of that pagan word and go back to the Bible itself. Hermeneutics comes from the pagan god “Hermes.” (II Corinthians 6:14-18) There are many issues with this that I will also leave alone except to admonish all to learn what the Bible alone states and obey it!!
Most kindly, EndTimes
Samphire
Said this on February 25th, 2007 at 11:44am:Hi, joshtriangle
I don’t understand what point you are trying to make. I’m sure you don’t intend to sound like a nazi but that’s how it comes over. Perhaps you could give it another shot.
What, for instance, was wrong with my Darwinist definition of “Survival of the fittest”?
My original point was my disgust at the seemingly joyous dismissal by Bro.Frazier of those who seek to look for peace in accordance with Christ’s teachings.
As for ID, I tend to agree with EndTimes that it is not a hypothesis which assists the YEC cause. If you, Michael Behe (the anti-YECist) or Jonathan Wells (the Mooney and anti-YECist) and his chums at the Center for Science and Culture can come up with some physical scientific evidence to prove the case for ID I don’t doubt that it could become mainstream science. Trouble is, I cannot see how any of you can do so.
To quote Paul Nelson who was instrumental in the early days of Intelligent Design: “Intelligent Design proponents offer nothing to the scientific community upon which a scientific program can be developed. They don’t even have clearly defined definitions of critical terms that can be understood and applied by others. For example, they have provided no objective basis upon which others can apply concepts, such as irreducible complexity or specific complexity. They focus on critiques of evolutionary theories that either attack strong views of evolution, misrepresent current science, or are simply based on flawed reasoning. They also point to areas of frontier science in which the scientific community is yet to reach a consensus. None of this constitutes any challenge to the predicted and explanatory power of evolutionary theory. In short, with regard to Intelligent Design there is nothing there. There simply is no theory of ID or anything approaching it. ID is not used in scientific research, even by its primary proponents. All ID is is a series of failed and rejected criticisms of evolutionary theory. Easily the biggest challenge facing the ID community is to develop a full fledged theory of biological design. We don’t have such a theory right now and that’s a real problem. Without a theory it is very hard to know where to direct your research focus. Right now we’ve got a bag of powerful intuitions and a handful of notions such as irreducible complexity and specified complexity, but as yet no general theory of biological design.”
My prophecy is that, with the ever-increasing interest in evo-devo and molecular biology, over time the very thin edge of a very thin Wedge will become very much thinner. Although not quite on subject try http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/ for a critique of Well’s Icons of Evolution to discover just how good is the quality of JW’s science generally.
Kind regards
Samphire
Samphire
Said this on February 25th, 2007 at 11:52am:Hi Samuel,
Thank heavens for EndTimes. You were just starting to dangerously mislead me when ET immediately galloped to the rescue.
But, EndTimes, I have a cunning plan to avoid the end times altogether. According to Daniel 9:27 (not mentioned by you for some reason) and Matthew 24:15, Jesus must return after a 3½ year Great Tribulation that starts with the standing up of the statue of the “abomination of desolation” (can you help me as to what that is supposed to be?) and the stopping of daily animal sacrifices on the Temple Mount.
As far as I know there aren’t any sacrifices presently been made so if we keep it that way we should all be OK. So, everybody, please keep your eyes and ears open and let me know if it looks as though somebody is planning to restart sacrifices or open a KFC on Temple Mount and I’ll ask the Israeli Police to pop round and sort them out before it all starts getting out of hand.
Doubtless, EndTimes, you will insist on having your Tribulation and so will soon find a text that will frustrate my proposed humanitarian gesture.
samuel
Said this on February 26th, 2007 at 6:03am:Endtimes and Samphire: good morning, God bless you
Proverbs 3:5-8: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
Seems to me the pair of you are quite “wise” in your own eyes.
Romans 1:20-25: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
I think you’ll find that CSE and countless other Christians would agree with me that the pre-tribulation rapture is non-sence and a severe misinterpretation of the scriptures. I do not claim to be an expert myself, but I will seek advise on how to respond to the pre-trib rapture so that the “intellects” of the blog are satisfied.
I know Endtimes will probably scoff and mock me now, and probably post a lengthy blog to try to make me look stupid, but the word of God stands firm. I think you will find that NO ONE will be raptured until the end of the tribulation, so that ALL of the Church of Christ will be a witness right up until the time of the return of Jesus Christ.
Sam
samuel
Said this on February 26th, 2007 at 6:21am:xchampion91: good morning, God bless you
I can quite honestly say I am a devout Christian and confess I am nothing without the Lord. It is me who has taken on his cross daily and followed him. It is he who has taken hold of my life, and is still shaping it today. I trust and love the Lord with 100% of my heart and have accepted his free gift of salvation.
Please could you distinguish then whom the Church is, who you believe will be raptured before the tribulation? I for one am ready and willing to die for my faith, raptured or not, but are you? I think Christians who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture and are actually expecting it are going to be shocked when they realise they too may have to die for Jesus Christ our lord.
I will post more on this later but I have to go now.
Love and prayers from,
Sam.
xchampion91
Said this on February 26th, 2007 at 10:36am:God Bless you too, Brother Samuel
The church is the bride of Christ. As EndTimes said, you have to study verse upon verse, precept upon precept. Study the book of Ruth for a little bit more info on the role of Christ in the end times. I think that when you look at that you will see who the church is. Read Revelation Chapter 19 verse 5. The marriage supper is before the return of the Lord at the battle of Armageddon. I say this with the fullest love for a brother in Christ, where in the scriptures are the reasons for your adhering to the post-trib theory? Please reply so we can discuss it. I am open to your comments and as a fellow believer I will listen with open arms and a soft heart.
xchamp
Samphire
Said this on February 26th, 2007 at 11:27am:Good morning to you, Samuel, and God bless you, too.
I would have thought that 2,000 years would be more than sufficient to allow you guys to get your story straight. All this navel gazing and no further forward. Do yourselves a favour and chuck it into the bin with our phlogiston.
Why does it matter, any how? Either way, you are still saved.
While you continue to scrap it out I shall proceed to order the “No barbecue” notices just to be on the safe side.
EndTimes
Said this on February 26th, 2007 at 8:53pm:Dear Bro. Samuel,
I would simply like to remind you of where this conversation started, with you dogmatically stating that Pre-Trib believers are “decieved.” Now in further continuence of this converstation, you have not offered any proof for your dogmatic statement and you feel that my only response to you is to mock you. Sorry, but I am only interested in some further evidence from the Scriptures in suport of your dogmatic statement. I will be eagerly looking forward to you simply looking at the Scriptures that I gave for you to consider and look indeed how the signs for Israel include the moon and sun turning blood red in the time of the end before the second coming. There are several OT prophets who spoke of the end times battle for Israel with this sign of the “Second Coming” which is for Israel alone, and not for the church. That would be a short and profitable study for you to engage in.
I would further remind you that it is not the authorities on the Pre, Post, Mid, Pre-wrath or any other combination of interpretations of the Rapture that will be present with you on the day that you stand before your Lord and give an account for everything that you have done in your body whether good or bad. I Thessalonians 5:21 holds you personally responsible for proving all things and holding fast that which is good. If you believe that you have already accomplished this task in regards to the Rapture, then that is an issue between you and your Maker, not me.
As for me, I would rather get back to the issue of creation and evolution which is what I thought was the forum for this blog.
In kind regards, EndTimes.
samuel
Said this on February 27th, 2007 at 6:31am:xchampion91, Samphire & Endtimes Good morning again! God bless you, I hope your day is going well!
First of all I would like to apologise to everyone for being a little bit self righteous and hypocritical in my previous posts by calling people who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, “selfish and small minded”. I’m truly sorry. The Lord has showed me I shouldn’t speak like this of my Christian brethren or of any man, as I should not judge, unless I want to be judged.
However, this still does not change my mind however on the specifics of the rapture. xchampion91: I would love to discuss my point of view with you in love and understanding, and would also love to listen to your side of the coin. I will post a specific blog on my opinion and understanding about the rapture, including reference from scripture etc, later when I get time.
Samphire: Unfortunately I have not had 2000 years to “get my story straight” I have only had a short 25 years in this world to make my mind up about certain factors in life. I have found, through experience, that the Bible (KJV) is an absolutely astounding and brilliant guide to life, truth and love. It is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Like Kent Hovind says, and I would agree with him, Bible = Basic instructions before leaving earth. I honestly believe this was the best way we could grasp and understand Gods message and the whole concept, relayed to us without direct interference, (like appearing in the sky saying “I am God, obey me!!!”) but that’s a whole other topic.
The disagreements and arguments a lot of Christians face regarding certain doctrines does grieve my heart. Yes, it would be excellent if all saw eye to eye, and agreed on doctrine, interpretation etc, but unfortunately, Satan has been working away behind the scenes in the lives of men to corrupt Gods incorruptible word, which IS indeed incorruptible in its true sense, but our mortal understanding is not.
On the same note I think man has a knack of thinking HE knows better than the next man, and “my understanding” is better than yours, type reasoning (pride). This can happen in ANY faith, science, or doctrine, so it is inevitable in an imperfect world, for what is perfect to be corrupted in man eyes and ways. That is why Jesus died for us on that cross, because he knows we can never be perfect in this life, its impossible as we are born into sin, God knew someone needed to pay for that sin and our reconciliation and made the necessary arrangements for this. Ever watched Narnia: The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe?
Samphire: You made an excellent point about us being saved. Yes we are my friend, saved from ourselves, saved from Satan’s clutches, saved from hell. I have hope for EVERYONE in this world, past, present and future for salvation, as the blood of Jesus Christ was sacrificed for YOU and ME – EVERYONE. Not just for the Jews, not just for a certain brand of people, but for ALL.
Romans 3:22-24: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
John 3:16-17: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Praise the Lord of Lords! King of Kings! The #1 head honcho! He loves us all intimately.
I would like to say a prayer specifically for Samphire.
Dear Lord, I come before you today in prayer. I ask that you can show our friend Samphire the spiritual light. Please dear Jesus, open his eyes to your free gift of salvation through faith and grace, please make it known to him your endless unconditional love. Please almighty God, help, guide and show Samphire his way in this life as you have so lovingly and carefully with me. And most of all dear Lord, not my will but yours be done on earth as it is in heaven. In Jesus name, Amen.
Samphire: you are loved so much more than you could possibly imagine.
All my love, prayers and kind regards,
Sam.
xchampion91
Said this on February 27th, 2007 at 12:38pm:Samuel, I would love to chat about this with you. I really appreciate your eloquent words in regard to samphire, and I echo them as well. It is refreshing to deal with someone who is open. Too much closed-mindedness here from all sides. I have been to other blog sites and I have to say that this one is much better in tone and the people who come here are for the most part pretty easy to deal with. I look forward eagerly to your next post.
Much Love Brother,
xchamp
Samphire
Said this on February 27th, 2007 at 1:24pm:Hi, Samuel,
You said “Samphire: Unfortunately I have not had 2000 years to “get my story straight” I have only had a short 25 years in this world to make my mind up about certain factors in life. I have found, through experience, that the Bible (KJV) is an absolutely astounding and brilliant guide to life, truth and love. It is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.”
I wasn’t suggesting that you are older than EndTimes
just that your tribe should have been able to sort out a relatively simple timeline by now. The fact that it hasn’t indicates that it cannot be that important a factor in salvation – whatever EndTimes says about 1 Thess 5 – or are there further hoops a Christian has to jump through which weren’t mentioned by Jesus in order to get passed the Pearly Gates?
I can see why Richard Dawkins doesn’t consider Theology to be science.
Kind regards
Samphire
samuel
Said this on February 27th, 2007 at 1:43pm:Dear Brother Endtimes, God bless you
I would like to apologise for the way I came accross in my previous post, you are right, I did seem very dogmatic and arrogant in how I presented my post. This was honestly not my intention. I can see I offended you and I sincerely apologise.
I intend on spending a bit of time reviewing what you have posted regarding the rapture, and will post my views re: the rapture, including scripture to back it up. I am also aware of the prophets Daniel, John and other prophesies, visions and dreams re: the time of the end. I would consider myself fairly intermediate in terms of scripture that speak of the end of this era.
Also Endtimes, you really don’t need to remind me about the white throne judgement, I know I will have to stand in front of our Lord and give account for every idle word spoken, as will you and everyone else. But do remember this, Satan is the accuser of the saints, it is he that puts despair, anger & hate in the hearts of men for their sins. He would like nothing better then to be able to condemn us all to hell for even the slightest thing we have ever done wrong, but, the blood of Jesus Christ has wiped away our sins, we have been officially pardoned for our wrong doings by the ultimate sacrifise, our Lord and saviour on that rugged cross.
It reminds me of an old Johnny Cash song that I really love and cherish. Its called “I was there when it happened” (please dont edit out paul!
) it goes like this….
There are some people, who say we cannot tell,
Whether we are saved or, whether all is well;
They say we only can hope and, trust that it is so,
But I was there when it happened and so I guess I ought to know.
Chorus:
Yes, I know when Jesus saved me (yes, He saved my soul),
The very moment He forgave me (yes, He made me whole);
He took away my heavy burden (yes, He took my sin and),
And He gave me peace within (gave me peace within).
Satan can’t make me doubt it (he can’t make me doubt it),
It’s real and I’m gonna shout it (I’m gonna shout it);
‘Cause I was there when it happened (oh, my Lord),
and I guess I ought to know (yes, I ought to know).
Now, I don’t care who tells me, salvation is not real,
Though the world may argue, that we cannot feel;
The heavy burdens lifted and the vile sins go,
But I was there when it happened and so I guess I ought to know.
Please dont ever try to make me or anyone else feel bad for their sins ever again Endtimes, I’m not saying you should point out things that are wrong, but dont try to make people feel bad about it, Satan does a good job of that as it is.
Untill next time, God bless and keep you.
Sam.
joshtriangle
Said this on March 2nd, 2007 at 10:12am:Good grief old Samphy, we will continue to take half-steps there with science. It’s a good thing. It’s the right journey, it’s part of God’s plan (uh oh, brain shutdown, take a breath Samphy!).
Some steps will make us easily declare, “Well there it is, obviously that’s how that works and so there’s our natural explanation…”.
Some steps will make us scratch our heads saying, “I see why those atoms and molecules are attracted like that, and so that leads to certain combinations, and those amino acids tending to form these proteins, and why are they folding like that there, and why the heck is that protein manufacturing more of those proteins, but I see how, and…”.
We’ve got fantastic names. Great labels. Magnetism, gravity, lightwaves, neutrons, protons, quarks, electrons, black holes, ACTG, RNA, DNA, photons….
Science is great at naming and labeling and explaining processes. And it will continue.
You won’t get all the answers before your ticker stops ticking… You won’t know. So go out and take a walk, look around, and drop a few hints to that unknown that it sure would be posh if “it” could let you know before you’re worm food if “it” really made the universe or if “it” is nothing and thanks for the trip.
And I’m glad if you’re not lukewarm Samphy… better to be cold… Assuming “we’re” the hot ones.
sjab1958
Said this on March 3rd, 2007 at 4:06am:Mr Hovind I would appreciate your explaining what seem to be errors in your article “Did Plants Die Before Adam Sinned?” as posted on your website.
In the second paragraph you seem to promise a definition of what life is, but nowhere in the article does any such definition seem to emerge.
You tell us that plants have neither the breath of life nor blood, but there are animals that dont possess either of these qualities, and if I am not mistaken only Adam was given the breath of life.
Another point I would like clarified is this, you say “the life is in the blood”, so why then do people and animals die when there is still blood in their bodies?
Also your statement “No life forms come forth out of the earth. Animals always come from parents of the same kind.”, you seem to be ignoring the fact that some animals reproduce asexually and also the Genesis verses 1:24 and 2:7.
I do hope you can personally clear up these matters and send me your response at your earliest convenience.
balfres@hotmail.com
Samphire
Said this on March 4th, 2007 at 8:43am:Hi Josh,
The content of your post is somewhat obscure but, if I understand it correctly, you seem to miss the point.
Science will not find all the answers, not even to its own questions. Religion has its own place outside of science and it should be left there.
Science does not disprove religion – only some of its dogma. Religion does not disprove science, even its dogma.
joshtriangle
Said this on March 5th, 2007 at 12:55pm:Hi Samphire,
“Science will not find all the answers…”
Who is the “Science” person you speak of?
In other words, do you see your personification of what is a branch of study, not of man-made things, but of things that exist (being gentle not to force the origins question)…
“Religion has its own place outside of science and it should be left there.”
“Religion”. Labels Samphire. So many labels we got all over the place.
Let’s define this one, because I think I see what you mean.
Religion: A man-made notion of how the universe came to be and why.
I would agree at least partially with you given the above. And I’d also say that anyone wanting anything to do with “Religion” is a poor sap. Pathetic. Yet someone I’d love dearly to meet, because I can be fairly confident that they are searching for answers.
Incredibly enough at the very same time there are those steeped in a religion who are not searching. They are protecting their “make-believe” world, or their loyalty to what is, after all, their man-made culture and tradition…
Culture is cool. I love different culture, and respect it highly.
But religion is not a nationality, and I want absolutely NOTHING to do with a fantasy world of make believe.
I want truth.
And the truth is, you cannot separate science from true religion. Let’s now redefine religion to be what it meant thousands of years ago, study of and service to God.
God who created everything, therefore includes “science”.
I don’t want to know any other “god” than that One!
And, I believe that God is quite able to reach through to those created in His image, and give them the ability to know Him! And not only that, but that He would want to.
And what better than a nicely packaged item where no other person is required to be depended on, but only it on its own, and can be “consumed” on a personal level.
Never would I have believed that, until fairly recently when I simply asked the unknown… are you there? I will not give up until I have thought it through quite sternly, with a very open mind, and all systems aware of possible corruption from the loony fringe.
My life is His – Jesus Christ. That’s just a label – but look beyond the covers – He created science!
Religion? Ha.
Peace bro.
J