From: Kent Hovind
Sent: July 26, 2007
To: God
Subj: Re: Pay attention, son!
kh: It’s me again, Lord.
GOD: I know, son, it’s always good to hear from you. I wish you would talk to me more often. I have everything you will ever need or want and more.
kh: I believe You. Lord, it’s early in the morning and I want to dedicate this day to You. Is there someone special in here that You want me to reach for You today?
GOD: There is, son. Look in the mirror and you will see him. You are special to Me, and the main person I want to reach through this prison experience is you. It’s not what I want you to do. It’s what I want you to be.
kh: OK, Lord. Where do we start? I want badly for You to work on me. I seem to have a hard time listening to You.
GOD: Yes, son, I know. You have had a hard time listening since you were a small child. I gave you that hyperactive mind, but you need to get it under better control. Read Luke 10:27; Romans 7:23; 8:7; 12:2; Ephesians 4:23; Philippians 2:5; and I Peter 1:13.
kh: I know, Lord. I’m sorry. I read where You called a lot of people twice to get their attention like “Abraham, Abraham” in Genesis 22:11, “Moses, Moses” in Exodus 3:4, “Samuel, Samuel” in I Samuel 3:10, “Martha, Martha” in Luke 10:41, “Simon, Simon” in Luke 22:31, and “Saul, Saul” in Acts 9:4. It seems like You have to call me hundreds of times to get me to listen.
GOD: That is correct, son. You are what many people call “hard-headed.” That can be a good trait if it is used for the right cause (Ezekiel 3:8-9). I can deal with hardheaded better than hard-hearted. You normally don’t get too hardhearted (Exodus 14:4,17; Deuteronomy 15:7; I Samuel 6:6; Psalm 95:8; Hebrews 3:8,15). That is good. Keep it that way.
kh: I’ll try, Lord. Are you getting tired of working with me yet?
GOD: Not yet, son. I’m merciful, patient, and long suffering (Exodus 34:6). I’ll finish what I started in you (Philippians 1:6). Do you remember reading about all the gold items in the tabernacle and temple (Exodus 15:18; 37:7; Numbers 8:4)?
kh: Yes, Lord. I’ll bet they were beautiful!
GOD: They are beautiful. You will see them one day. Did you notice how they were formed?
kh: Yes, Lord. They were all beaten into shape.
GOD: That’s right, son. I know being in prison makes you feel “beat up” right now, but actually this “beating” is being carefully controlled for your good (Romans 8:28) and My glory (Psalm 8:1). I won’t let Satan give you more than you can handle (Job 1:12; 2:6; I Corinthians 10:13).
kh: Lord…I believe You, but it still hurts. I miss my family so badly. We are real close. I still cry for them every day.
GOD: I know, son. I have saved all your tears in a bottle (Psalm 56:8). You will be fine. I’ll get you back with them. Where is your faith (Luke 8:25)?
kh: Well…I don’t have any trouble with my faith in the past. When I turned down the offer to go to foreman’s school at General Motors, I trusted You and I’ve seen You provide time after time. I trusted You eighteen years ago to start the creation ministry. You have been faithful to protect and provide the whole time.
It’s easy to have past faith. I’ve always seen You after you pass by (Exodus 33:22). I also have future faith, Lord. I believe You will come and rule this world (I Corinthians 15:24-25; Revelation 2:27; 12:5; 19:15).
My problem seems to be with present faith. The current mess I’m in looks pretty bad. I’m locked up; my wife could still go to prison; the judge said the government can seize ministry property to pay for a forfeiture filed against me personally based on drug trafficking laws; we were sentenced on facts there were not presented to the jury, jury instructions were changed after closing arguments, and on the injustices go!
GOD: Your situation is sort of like the disciples in the boat in the storm (Luke 8:23). They were sinking and it looked hopeless.
kh: Exactly! You could have prevented the storm or waited to cross until the next day, but You didn’t. Why did You let them almost sink?
GOD: I was with them all the way, son. I wasn’t worried at all. I told them we were going over to the other side (Luke 8:22) and we did (Luke 8:26). The little storm in the midst of the trip was to give them a small glimpse of My infinite power. I can do anything! Sometimes My children need to be reminded of that. You do too, son. You preach about Me a lot, but you know so little about Me. I’m with you now!
kh: I know, God. As I have read Your Word these last few weeks, I feel more and more that I know less and less. Though I’ve read it many times during the past thirty-eight years, it’s like a new book to me. I feel so inadequate to do anything for you, Lord.
GOD: That’s good, son. Keep it that way. I don’t need you to do My work.
kh: I know, Lord, but I need You. I need to do something for You after all You’ve done for me. I can’t wash Your feet with my tears because You aren’t here in a body now.
GOD: Oh, yes, I am, son. Read Matthew 25:35-45. You can minister to Me today. I’m all around you. Pay attention!
kh: OK, Lord. I see it now. Thanks!
GOD: Good, son. Get to work. I’ve got your back.
Blessings to you, Kent,
This is Basketball man emailing you. I am the guy with all the kids (10 children). We stopped by your place about 4 years ago and enjoyed your Dino adventureland. It was a blessing. Thanks for taking us out to dinner and showing the kids the fun tricks. They still remember that~
Just wanted to let you know that we, my family and I, are praying for you, that God would get you out so that you can continue to do what the Lord has called you to do. You know and I know that the Lord has called us to do two things 1) To know Him. 2) To make Him known. From what you have been writing in the cse blog, it looks like you are getting to know the Lord in ways most people could only dream of. I know it must be so difficult to be in the prison and away from your family. I can’t imagine the pain that you must feel on a daily basis. May the Lord give you strength, and may the hope of the Lord be real to you.
I was thinking of Heb. 13:5, where the Lord says He will never leave nor forsake us, and also Romans 8:28 says that all things work together for good to those who love the Lord, who are called according to His purpose. Kent, I know that you love the Lord, for the fruit of that is evident in meeting you personally, and also in the work that the Lord has had you do. It is one thing to know those verses in your head and use the promises in a limited way, and most Christians do just that. But it is an entirely different thing to actually have to rely on those promises on a minute by minute basis. God will give you the strength that you need.
“Dear Heavenly Father, we come to You in the name of Jesus your son! You are such a merciful and gracious God, and we don’t deserve anything that you have given us. Lord, we all need to be in prison because we have broken your commandments. It is only because of the Cross of Jesus Christ that we have been set free from the curse of sin and death. Lord you said that “By His stripes we are healed.” That means that the sick body, the sick soul, the sick heart, and the sick and hopeless mind can be healed by the Blood of the spotless Lamb of God! Lord, give your unconditional love and healing to Kent at this time, and help him through his discouragement, and hopelessness. Let him see light at the end of the tunnel. Jesus, you have come to set the captive free. Lord we pray that Kent would be set free from the inside out. Please continue to help him rely on your promises, and that your mercies are new every morning. Please Reunite him with his family that he loves so much quickly. Help him to find favor, like Joseph did in the bible, and help the favor that you give him get him out.
Thanks you Lord, and it is in Jesus’ Name that we pray, Amen
Blessings Kent,
Your friend,
Bruce
Hi Kent,
Just a note to thank you for all you have done for me and my family through your ministry. My children love your videos. Your knee-mails are a blessing. I wish your critics would site the section of Title 26 or post a quote from it that shows what law you broke. If they are so well versed in it, they should be able to do so easily. If someone wanted to know why their actions are wrong, a Bible believer could easily show them from the word of God, chapter and verse. If you or I want to know what law we’ve broken in the realm of human government, why can’t the Title 26 believer show us chapter and verse? This is mainly for akg41470, a critic of yours on October 12th, 2007 at 4:49am. At least one jury can’t seem to find the law either. Anyone interested should Google “Whitey Harrell” and find out how he was acquited of similar charges as Kent Hovind. May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you and all who tell the truth!
Hello Brother Kent,
May you continue to be encouraged in your walk with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. A recent poster made the comment that maybe you should read your Bible less. However, as followers of Christ, we know there is no better way to spend one’s time than in prayer and Bible study. I have been listening to Left Behind on audio. Though I don’t know whether those who have heard and rejected the Gospel will be given another chance after the rapture, the series is certainly good. I also am of the persuasion that the rapture will not be pre-Tribulation.
We’re praying for you, Jo, and your whole family.
We love you,
The Johnsons
[EDITOR'S NOTE: Okay, fixed. P.A. ]
At the risk of spoiling the moment, did anyone else have a disturbing mental image of the Bottled Tear Department in Heaven? [...EDITED...]
EDITOR’S NOTE: Well, not much content. Mean. …We have had to cut way down on skeptics having their way since whenever you last posted, FuManchu. And this one appeared to me to be a “hit message”. P.A. ]
Dear Kent:
Once again, your words encourage me more than you’ll ever know! Struggling with a similar, but not as bad–(not even 1/1000) as the trial you are in. I realize that doesn’t comfort you much, but your words, your knee mails comfort me. God’s responses are things we know to be true from His word. How can we doubt. Here’s what God gave me this morning. May it comfort you as well. 1Peter 3:16 “Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.” I love it! It doesn’t say ‘if’ they accuse you, but ‘whereas’ or when! We should expect it. Phil 1:29,30 says “For unto you it is given in th behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.” Peter not only suffered, Paul did as well. Then Paul goes into that beautiful passage about Christ…”Let this mind be in you…” It was on the heels of suffering. May we all be that faithful.
Praying for you, family & staff. Much love to you all.
Dee
avsoundman,
You are not the first to ask what law Kent broke. In fact, Kent has, on numerous occasions (and quite famously, during his trial) asked to “show me the law” that he was accused of violating.
For the record, Kent was found guilty on 58 counts:
Counts 1-12 were violations of Title 26 United States Code, Section 7202, which requires employers to withhold payroll taxes.
Counts 13-57 were violations of Title 31, United States Code, Sections 5324(a)(3) and 5324(d), Title 31, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 103.11, and Title United States Code, Section 2, which relate to “structuring” of financial transactions to evade bank reporting requirements.
Count 58 was a violation of Title 26, United States Code, Section 7212(a), obstructing justice.
These laws are straight from his indictment. When Kent claims he doesn’t know which laws he violated, he has either failed to read his own indictment, or he is lying. I leave it to the gentle reader to determine which is more likely.
dax w
Said this on October 15th, 2007 at 8:17pm:
“Three crosses
I did indeed shorten up on your quotes. Sorry
But the gist of what I said remains. Why does it
susprise you(it seems that you are susprised)to remain out of jail?
The latter comment seems strange as I don’t know of anyone that knows
anyone that has recently been released from prison. It just seems strange
that you know these people who get out of jail and then go back.
Dax w”
You didn’t quote me at all. You interpreted what I said and changed it to fit your means. I’m glad that your life is sheltered enough that you don’t know anyone who has been to prison. I believe you will find out, if you care to research it that most people who enter the prison system go right back after their release. You should also research the differences between state jail, prison, and federal prison. You seem to be confusing them. A quote is where you reprint or repeat what someone else said (see above where I quoted you, I didn’t fix your spelling because it was a quote). Here is something you can quote. If you you have enough money, political influence, or fame you don’t have to worry about prison.
With love and patience three Crosses
CrystalG
Said this on October 13th, 2007 at 9:28pm:
I have had a few trials in my own life lately (through the month of September). During that month, my grandfather passed away, I found out that I was pregnant–only to miscarry a week and a half later, and as I’ve mentioned before, some people petitioned to have me fired because of my belief in the literal truth of the Bible.
Geno:
First, let me extend my sympathy for the burdens you’ve had to bear with the loss of your grandfather and unborn child.
I can also understand the stress associated with having your job threatened on account of religious issues. In my case, the threat (by the principal and superintendant) was because I taught state mandated standards using a textbook selected, purchased, and provided by my district. According to a poll by the National Science Teacher’s Association, some 30% of all science teachers have had their jobs threatened in a similiar way.
That said, I find it difficult to accept that the basis of the complaint against you was your “belief in the literal truth of the Bible”. It is my wager that your actions in the classroom, not your beliefs that led to the petition you complain about. I strongly suspect that you, in some way, taught from the Bible.
If so, then you were teaching a religious belief and the parents who complained were well within their rights. As teachers in the public schools, it is our obligation to leave the religious training of our students to their parents. What would you do if your children’s teachers started teaching them Islam, Taoism, Buddhism, etc.?
My suggestion, made with great respect, is that if you feel you must teach the Bible, you should leave public schools and teach at a private school that is not subject to the same restrictions on the teaching of religious beliefs.
[EDITOR'S NOTE: Well, one could contend that evolution is the religion most endangering the modern classroom. So we need MORE God-fearing school teachers, one could contend, not less!
And for the record, there are several articles on-line regarding teaching the Bible and origins theories in schools. Here are a few:
Should the Public Schools Teach Creation?
http://www.icr.org/article/1094/
Creation, The Public Schools, And Good Education
http://www.icr.org/article/977/
Teaching the Bible in Public Schools?
http://www.icr.org/article/408/
Creation in public schools
http://www.answersingenesis.org/us/newsletters/1102lead.asp
Why All the Fuss About Creation and Evolution?
http://www.creationism.org/csshs/v15n3p23.htm P.A. ]
Dear Brother Kent,
Thank you for posting your conversations with the Father. The Father has been speaking to me through this one and the one posted Oct. 10. You are a blessing to the body even in your weakness. “Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.” Romans 12:15 We will continue to uphold you to the Father and like I told your daughter Marlissa (she’s my friend on myspace), this is a battle you do not fight alone.
We love you and your family so much,
Kelly Francis (no longer in Idaho, but now in Ohio)
Geno
Said this on October 16th, 2007 at 2:08pm:
“I can also understand the stress associated with having your job threatened on account of religious issues…That said, I find it difficult to accept that the basis of the complaint against you was your “belief in the literal truth of the Bible”. It is my wager that your actions in the classroom, not your beliefs that led to the petition you complain about. I strongly suspect that you, in some way, taught from the Bible.”
Geno, I know it seems hard to believe that people would want my job removed based on my beliefs, rather than my actual actions, but that is precisely what happened to me. The people who petitioned for my removal from my position were not actually parents from my school–or even residents of the city where I live. The people who petitioned for me to be fired were internet people. I made a comment on this site that said that I am a teacher who has been strengthened by the Hovinds’ creation ministry. In that comment, I mentioned that I had looked through all of my books to make sure that I had no evolutionary or “millions of years” jargon in them. NOTE: These were all my own personal books–which I purchased with my own money–and have a right to purge or keep at my own discretion. Some people read my comment on the internet and were outraged. There’s a site devoted to bashing “fundies”–fundamental Christians. I was apparently a hot topic of discussion, and they wished for me to get fired. Put this link into your browser to see for yourselves.
http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/comments.aspx?id=29201
I was plotted against. They looked me up on the internet, found my administrators email addresses and posted them, and each sought to destroy my career. Based on what? That I had made sure that the books that I purchased didn’t have misinformation in them based on my beliefs in the Bible. This may be surprising, but in first grade–which is what I teach, we don’t delve into science very deeply at all. We stick to teaching reading, writing, and math which are crucial for development in first grade. It is not even appropriate for anyone to teach evolution at this level–even if it were a true theory–they wouldn’t get it. Animals are related? A bird came from a reptile? So, needless to say, since evolution is not even in the curriculum, creation doesn’t get addressed in my classroom either. So, people wanted for me to be destroyed for a topic that isn’t even within my curriculum to teach. They wanted me to get fired because of my stated beliefs–not because of anything that I have done.
Now, had evolution been in my curriculum, we would be having a different discussion because I could not teach the one religion without addressing the other. That would be my duty. My evolution friends, don’t worry, though. I love first grade and don’t intend on moving to a higher grade.
So Geno, I’m sorry but you were misinformed. I was not teaching the Bible–I simply stated my beliefs and people desired to have me fired for that. Thankfully, it wasn’t God’s Will that I should be fired. He was so faithful through it all. Christians, beware–the time is growing late.
2 Titus 3:1 “This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.”
Crystal
Mr. Abramson, I thought you were no longer gonna to allow debating over creation/evolution? If you want crationism to be taught in public schools, what about other theories of origins such as humans were cloned from aliens? And should these theories be taught as science or as religion?
[EDITOR'S NOTE: Only science in science classrooms. That leaves out evolution. P.A. ]
Djhouk,
As far as I know the trial transcripts are not even done much less available. Which means that you are simply not in the position to know the facts of the trial, much less the truth. Wait till those documents are available. Until that happens, it is just a guessing game. Anyone can guess. Right now, you know very little, next to nothing. Be wise, and wait.
Istvan
Geno said:
“What would you do if your children’s teachers started teaching them Islam, Taoism, Buddhism, etc.?”
Dear sir these religions were included in my daughter’s “public school” social studies book but not Christianity. Please open your eyes and ears!
//////////////////////////
To CrystalG:
My friend was fired for his religious beliefs, he simply stated that science could not explain medical miracles. He was a chemistry professor at a junior college. Don’t be to surprised about how many people turn a blind eye to the war that is raging around them. Many truly believe that ignorance is bliss and practice it, long after they know the truth. Keep up the good work, remember there are many more of us waking up to the truth everyday.
//////////////////////////
To Paul Abramson: I’m not sure I agree with Mr. Missler about everything, but it is definitely one of the most interesting Bible studies I’ve ever been through. Thank you for introducing me to it!
To all, may God bless you with clarity of sight with love three crosses
avsoundman Said this on October 15th, 2007 at 9:38pm:
“I wish your critics would site the section of Title 26 or post a quote from it that shows what law you broke.”
I’ve posted it many times. Here it is again:
Mr. Hovind was charged, among others, under Title 26 USC § 7202:
“Any person required under this title to collect, account for, and pay over any tax… shall be fined… or imprisoned.”
Withholding (i.e. collecting an paying over) is required under Title 26 USC § 3402:
“every employer making payment of wages shall deduct and withhold upon such wages a tax…”
§3401 defines wages as:
“… all remuneration… for services performed by an employee for his employer…”
And an employer as:
“… the person for whom an individual performs or performed any service, of whatever nature, as the employee of such person…”
The §3401 definition of employee, because of its use of “includes,” is not a comprehensive definition (see definition of “includes” in §7701(c)). So, we look to the taxes imposed.
These taxes are listed in a number of places. The FICA tax, for example is in Chapter 21 (§31xx), which defines an employee (in §3121(d)) as:
“… any individual who, under the usual common law rules applicable in determining the employer-employee relationship, has the status of an employee…”
So, we look to – and apply – the usual common law rules. For example:
http://www.wm.edu/grants/HANDBOOK/irs20ruletest.htm
That’s the law.
Which means the jury had to decide whether the people that worked at CSE were employees or independent contractors. From reading the trial reports, it doesn’t look like it was a tough decision.
As I said in my last post (which doesn’t look like it showed up for some reason or another), I find it curious that Mr. Hovind made that employee-not-employee distinction part of his defense, even though he claims never to have seen the law.
“Anyone interested should Google “Whitey Harrell” and find out how he was acquited of similar charges as Kent Hovind.”
Mr. Harrell was acquitted of state criminal charges for failing to pay personal income tax.
Mr. Hovind was convicted of federal criminal charges for failing to withhold employee taxes.
The only similarity (apart from them both being tax cases) is that Mr. Hovind and Mr. Harrell are both still civilly liable for their taxes. Both have to pay the government taxes due and owing.
Istvan,
I beg to differ. While the transcripts themselves are not available, all of the other trial documents, including the indictment, motions, judgement, and sentence are publicly available. I’m merely pointing out that Kent’s claim (which he has made repeatedly) that he doesn’t know what laws he violated is simply not true.
I’m open to some other interpretation of the facts (he didn’t bother to read his own indictment or judgement?), but the evidence suggests he is simply not being truthful.
Hi FuManchu (with no uppercase ‘c’)
How did you get on in your exams? I’m sure Congratulations are due. Following all that tough study, I hope and trust you are now able to embark further into your required profession field.
Fu, Christians in Britain are almost certainly entering into difficult times. I entreat you to keep us in mind. Should you ever deal with a Christian who has reluctantly broke the laws of the land.(I don’t mean Christians not paying taxes), please remember us in kindness and fondness. God bless you.
Matthew 10:41-42
“41He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
42And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward”
Dear Kent,
You wrote:
“…kh: OK, Lord. Where do we start? I want badly for You to work on me. I seem to have a hard time listening to You….”
Be encouraged brother in Christ!!!
This is truly a sign of God’s blessings upon you – to feel that you aren’t “trusting enough” or “listening enough” or “… enough”.
In those times where it seems you cannot “do enough”, be encouraged! Be still and know God!
The bottom line is that this world is broken, seriously broken… to see the hint of beauty, only for the horror caused by so many “created in His image”… so sad, so very sad…
Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear His word, must taste the bitterness of the message as well as the glory of it!
But be encouraged as you are used by Him even now!
God Bless.
J
God bless Dr. Hovind! His videos have taught me so much! The simple yet powerful facts he gives have supplied me with the ability to keep my faith strong at my school! I think ten years in prison is ridiculous and he deserves to be free. The tax is illegal and we, as a church, should not be so quiet and complacent with it being enforced. I am not a politicion and I will never claim to be, but that does not change the facts. I hope Dr. Kent is set free and I hope the country opens it eyes to how much good this man has done us.
Lord bless you all, and keep supporting Dr. Hovind.
Dear Dr. Hovind,
This is the first time I am leaving a message on your site; I have been following your case and praying for you.
I first saw your creation presentation in 1995 in Massachusetts and it had a tremendous impact on my life. I had never heard anything like it before and God used it to produce a boldness in me that has been a part of many people getting saved. Thank you for your ministry over the years. It’s obvious that God has taken your ministry to a greater level in this situation he has allowed. Your ministry to the prisoners is fantastic and the blog is spiritual meat. I’m sorry that you have to be separated from your family and friends. I will continue to pray that you will be at rest in the Lord.
I praise God for what He is doing,
Tom
Hi Paul,
If I may, just to hit on a couple of the questions posed for this weeks study:
The speed of light by the most recent and accurate methods of recording, indicate that it is not a constant, but in a state of decline.
ALL of the major “missing links” have been proven to be fraudulent. So, to me, the big question is why the big stretch to push this theory and who is behind it?
Interesting notes from Dr. Missler:
God Himself wrote of the 6 day creation on tablets of stone (ten commandments), indicating they are not figurative or symbolic days.
The serpent caused doubt of Gods words and then outright denial, most similar to the skeptics method of debate here on this blog. Perhaps their wisdom comes from a source in the 6 hyperdimensions.
Thanks Paul,
Kevin
P.S. I noticed on the Dr. Kent Hovind @ Berkeley one young skeptic comment that a single cell organism, with what we know now, is “not all that complicated”. Dr. Misslers description of just the motor driving the flagellum is amazing. The ignorance and arrogance of some is amazing.
Nephilim (Angels), aka “Sons of God” were created during the Creation week. Source
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i2/beginning.asp
With Adam and Eve’s sin, all of creation was cursed. Source – Rom 8:22 and http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/answersbook/nephilim9.asp
Are the Angels cursed too?
If so, how are they to be redeemed?
If not, how did they escape the curse that affected the entire universe?
Michael
[EDITOR'S NOTE: Nephilim and Angels are NOT the same. The two AiG links do not concur with your definition. (The first article does not mention the Nephilim at all, correct?)
The second article does a good job of trying to explain the various theories on who and what the "Nephilim" were. We do not know for sure.
What makes you think that angels were created during Creation Week? And ... why would anyone using a Biblical context think that our universe is "all that is" out there? (Job 38:7)
Psalm 8:4-5 "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour."
If interested, Dr. Missler does have a study directed to discussing who the Nehiliim were: http://www.khouse.org/topical_bible_study/nephilim/ P.A. ]
My Fellow Bloggers-
I have been reading the various blogs here on CSE for almost a year now, and I can see that there are three obvious groups here. We have creationists, evolutionists, and the curious (mostly undecided). I personally fall into the creationist category; I also believe in letting people know where I stand, right off the bat. Brother Abramson and Brother E. Hovind- I am grateful to you for the dedicated hours that must be spent here, and for the opportunity to have “civilized” discussions about the current state of ‘mankind’. I find that man-KIND is becoming a growingly inappropriate name for ourselves. The term kind, as used in the Bible, has simply been forgotten, and replaced with more “intellectual” (so called) terms such as phylum, class, order, species, etc. I believe that far too much emphasis
Counts 1-12 were violations of Title 26 United States Code, Section 7202, which requires employers to withhold payroll taxes.
And that part of the U.S. Code violates the Constitutional provision against involuntary servitude. The IRS (an unconstitutional entity itself) has no legal right to force someone to be one of their employees and do their work (for free!)
Counts 13-57 were violations of Title 31, United States Code, Sections 5324(a)(3) and 5324(d), Title 31, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 103.11, and Title United States Code, Section 2, which relate to “structuring” of financial transactions to evade bank reporting requirements.
So in effect, Hovind was charged with 45 counts of OBEYING the law by keeping the amounts under $10,000. It’s preposterous in the first place that one should have to report what they do with their own money. In America, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. This reporting law assumes guilt until proven innocent.
Laws passed in violation of the Constitution are invalid. Much of the U.S. code violates the 9th and 10th Amendments which limit fedgov to to about 20 specific duties. ALL others are reserved for State and local gov’t.
If the Mafia takes over your neighborhood and requires you to withhold 20% of your parent’s wages for them, are you obligated to do so? The IRS has about as much Constitutional authority as the Mafia.
I am so very sorry that you have to suffer for what is right. You are one of the few who has what it takes to do what you do. Your teachings have put me back on the path of righteousness and I only hope that I can have a fraction of the wisdom you posses. I know that your situation may be the toughest yet in your life. When you think that you are about to break, you just have to keep pushing. God is there as you know and he will not abandon you no matter how far your government has left you behind.
The word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Genesis 15:1
My prayers are with you,
SonofNun
Teno
Said this on October 18th, 2007 at 1:18am:
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Counts 1-12 were violations of Title 26 United States Code, Section 7202, which requires employers to withhold payroll taxes.
And that part of the U.S. Code violates the Constitutional provision against involuntary servitude. The IRS (an unconstitutional entity itself) has no legal right to force someone to be one of their employees and do their work (for free!)
Counts 13-57 were violations of Title 31, United States Code, Sections 5324(a)(3) and 5324(d), Title 31, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 103.11, and Title United States Code, Section 2, which relate to “structuring” of financial transactions to evade bank reporting requirements.
So in effect, Hovind was charged with 45 counts of OBEYING the law by keeping the amounts under $10,000. It’s preposterous in the first place that one should have to report what they do with their own money. In America, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. This reporting law assumes guilt until proven innocent.
Laws passed in violation of the Constitution are invalid. Much of the U.S. code violates the 9th and 10th Amendments which limit fedgov to to about 20 specific duties. ALL others are reserved for State and local gov’t.
If the Mafia takes over your neighborhood and requires you to withhold 20% of your parent’s wages for them, are you obligated to do so? The IRS has about as much Constitutional authority as the Mafia.
It’s pretty self-evident that you’ve never had a constitutional law class. Or a legal class of any kind. The arguments are making here have repeatedly been deemed frivolous. Just out of curiosity, do you pay your taxes? A yes or no will suffice.
Three Crosses
Said this on October 17th, 2007 at 8:45am:
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Geno said:
“What would you do if your children’s teachers started teaching them Islam, Taoism, Buddhism, etc.?”
Dear sir these religions were included in my daughter’s “public school” social studies book but not Christianity. Please open your eyes and ears!
**********
Geno:
My bet it that those religions were mentioned, but that their theology or “truth” was not part of the lesson plan. Do you have the textbook and publisher’s information so I can check this out?
The issue I raised was not the mere mention of those religions but the teaching of their religious doctrine as true or correct. Keep in mind, I said “teaching from the Bible”. If those teachers are teaching from the Tao, Quran, of B’hvad Ghita , then you would have a comprable issue. A general mention that those religions exist and an overview of their beliefs would be acceptable. I’ll wait to see the actual text books and/or appropriate quotes before I form a final judgement.
Teno Said this on October 18th, 2007 at 1:18am:
“And that part of the U.S. Code violates the Constitutional provision against involuntary servitude.”
Since Mr. Hovind had a choice to become an employer, how is that involuntary?
It’s hardly comparable to being kidnapped, brought to the U.S.A. in chains, bought, sold, forced to work, beaten, is it?
But if you have any legal support for that assertion, I’d love to see it.
“It’s preposterous in the first place that one should have to report what they do with their own money.”
One doesn’t.
And there’s no crime in withdrawing large amounts of cash from the bank. Breaking large transactions into smaller ones to prevent the bank making a transaction report is a different story.
Djhouk,
I still recommend that you wait for the transcripts and see how this case develops. Things that appear to be quite simple at first sight very often turn out to be a bit more complicated. One piece of information can change a lot sometimes. Anyway, truth will out. Wait for the details, see for yourself who said what and in what context.
Istvan
CrystalG
Said this on October 16th, 2007 at 6:40pm:
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Geno
Said this on October 16th, 2007 at 2:08pm:
“I can also understand the stress associated with having your job threatened on account of religious issues…That said, I find it difficult to accept that the basis of the complaint against you was your “belief in the literal truth of the Bible”. It is my wager that your actions in the classroom, not your beliefs that led to the petition you complain about. I strongly suspect that you, in some way, taught from the Bible.”
CrystalG:
Geno, I know it seems hard to believe that people would want my job removed based on my beliefs, rather than my actual actions, but that is precisely what happened to me. The people who petitioned for my removal from my position were not actually parents from my school–or even residents of the city where I live. The people who petitioned for me to be fired were internet people. I made a comment on this site that said that I am a teacher who has been strengthened by the Hovinds’ creation ministry. In that comment, I mentioned that I had looked through all of my books to make sure that I had no evolutionary or “millions of years” jargon in them. NOTE: These were all my own personal books–which I purchased with my own money–and have a right to purge or keep at my own discretion. Some people read my comment on the internet and were outraged. There’s a site devoted to bashing “fundies”–fundamental Christians. I was apparently a hot topic of discussion, and they wished for me to get fired. Put this link into your browser to see for yourselves.
http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/comments.aspx?id=29201
*********
Geno:
OK, I went to the link and, so far as I can tell, this is your initial comment that led to the petition:
“Thank you for this blessed ministry. I am a first grade public elementary school teacher, and I am so thankful I know how to give an answer now when my kiddos ask. I’ve also been able to filter through all of my books to ensure that there is no reference anywhere in my classroom to anything being millions of years old or evolving.”
*********
KrystalG:
I was plotted against. They looked me up on the internet, found my administrators email addresses and posted them, and each sought to destroy my career. Based on what? That I had made sure that the books that I purchased didn’t have misinformation in them based on my beliefs in the Bible.
*********
Geno:
As I understand that comment, you used books that you personally purchased in your class. I don’t understand exactly what you meant when you say: “I know how to give an answer when my kiddos ask.” When they ask what? What do the first grade science standards say in your state?
**********
CrystalG:
This may be surprising, but in first grade–which is what I teach, we don’t delve into science very deeply at all. We stick to teaching reading, writing, and math which are crucial for development in first grade. It is not even appropriate for anyone to teach evolution at this level–even if it were a true theory–they wouldn’t get it. Animals are related? A bird came from a reptile? So, needless to say, since evolution is not even in the curriculum, creation doesn’t get addressed in my classroom either. So, people wanted for me to be destroyed for a topic that isn’t even within my curriculum to teach. They wanted me to get fired because of my stated beliefs–not because of anything that I have done.
*********
Geno:
So, let me get this straight. You ran into some clowns on the internet who are not parents at your school, not voters in your district, and (probably) not even residents of your state. In other words, they have absolutely NO standing with your school board or the administration of your school. And you are upset about the threat they presented to your job. Is that it?
I’ve run into creationist clowns of the same stripe. Some have said I should be charged with fraud (a felony) for accepting my paycheck. My response was to provide them with the name of my school (let them find the administrators themselves) and my teaching certificate number so they can register their complaints with the appropriate officials at both my school and the state DOE. These idiots (both the creationists who attacked me and the evolutionists who attacked you) have no relevance or significance to the authorities who run our schools.
Now, compare the “threat” you got with the one I got. I was escorted to the Super’s office by the principal, so I had my boss and his boss tell me point-blank that if I continued to teach evolution my position would be terminated. This is despite the fact that state (Oklahoma) academic standards issued by the DOE require I teach the subject and the textbook selected, purchased, and provided by the district has a five chapter unit on it.
Which of us do you think was confronted is the more real threat to their employment? The one where a bunch of internet clowns circulates a petition? Or the one in which your principal and superintendant call you into the super’s office and tell you, in no uncertain terms, to stop teaching material mandated by the state or else?.
**********
CrystalG:
Now, had evolution been in my curriculum, we would be having a different discussion because I could not teach the one religion without addressing the other.
********
Geno:
First: I agree that first graders are far from being ready to discuss more advanced topics of science. I do need to wonder… if evolution is not part of the first grade science curricula, why would it be necessary to check your books for references to things being “millions of years old” or “evolving”?
Second: Regardless of the opinion of a few individuals, evolution is not a religion. The authorities to whom we, as teachers in a public school, must submit as well as the scientific community in general say otherwise. As a first-grade classroom teacher you do not have the credentials to make that determination for your class…. nor do I as a high school science teacher. As I pointed out, if you cannot accept that, then you should go to a private school that is more friendly to your views.
Note: I’m trying real hard here to avoid this becoming a creation-evolution issue.
*********
CrystalG:
That would be my duty. My evolution friends, don’t worry, though. I love first grade and don’t intend on moving to a higher grade.
********
Geno:
No. Your duty, as a public school teacher, is to teach the curriculum developed and approved by state and district authorities.
Public school science teachers should teach only mainstream science. The reason is both simple and obvious. We simply don’t have enough time to teach mainstream science adequately let alone address the claims of a small minority of the scientific community.
*********
CrystalG:
So Geno, I’m sorry but you were misinformed. I was not teaching the Bible–I simply stated my beliefs and people desired to have me fired for that. Thankfully, it wasn’t God’s Will that I should be fired. He was so faithful through it all. Christians, beware–the time is growing late.
*******
Geno:
OK, I ASS-U-MEd, from your initial comments that you were. For that you have my apology.
It would still be useful to know, though…. what did you mean when you said: “I know how to give an answer now when my kiddos ask.” When they ask what?
Teno
Said this on October 18th, 2007 at 1:18am:
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Counts 1-12 were violations of Title 26 United States Code, Section 7202, which requires employers to withhold payroll taxes.
And that part of the U.S. Code violates the Constitutional provision against involuntary servitude. The IRS (an unconstitutional entity itself) has no legal right to force someone to be one of their employees and do their work (for free!)
*********
Geno:
Ridiculous. By that argument, stores cannot be compelled to collect sales tax; dealers cannot be compelled to collect vehicle licensing fees when they sell a car; phone companies cannot be compelled to collect excise taxes; virtually ALL of the taxes we pay are uncollectable. Good luck getting that one past a judge.
*********
Teno quotes:
Counts 13-57 were violations of Title 31, United States Code, Sections 5324(a)(3) and 5324(d), Title 31, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 103.11, and Title United States Code, Section 2, which relate to “structuring” of financial transactions to evade bank reporting requirements.
Teno:
So in effect, Hovind was charged with 45 counts of OBEYING the law by keeping the amounts under $10,000. It’s preposterous in the first place that one should have to report what they do with their own money. In America, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. This reporting law assumes guilt until proven innocent.
**********
Pi:
No. “Structuring” is deliberately holding transactions to less than $10,000 to avoid the reporting requirements of the law. Had Hovind drawn out $9999.99 one day, then a couple months later drawn out $9999.99 again, that would not be a problem. However, Hovind would draw $9500 a couple times in the same business day, or (frequently) on consecutive days. It’s pretty clear his actions were a deliberate attempt to avoid the cash reporting requirement.
The original point remains, Mr. Hovind claims no one has told him what laws he violated, yet the specific sections of the law that he was charged with violating are spelled out on each count of the indictment. Either Hovind did not read the indictment (which I doubt), or he is an idiot (which I also doubt), or he is being less than truthful.
It’s pretty self-evident that you’ve never had a constitutional law class. Or a legal class of any kind. The arguments are making here have repeatedly been deemed frivolous. Just out of curiosity, do you pay your taxes? A yes or no will suffice.
I’ve read the Constitution. No scholar is needed to twist and contort the Constitution. But they do it to the Bible, too, so it’s no surprise they’ll wrest the Constitution as well. Whether I pay my taxes is not only none of your business, but it has nothing to do with Bro. Hovind’s situation, or whether not paying them is right or wrong.
Since Mr. Hovind had a choice to become an employer, how is that involuntary?
Because someone chooses to become an employer, that doesn’t mean one forfeits his Constitutional rights. Being an employer should not submit one to servitude. ALL of us have employed others. Ever hire a plumber, electrician, mechanic, etc. to do work for you? Why did you not withold taxes from his pay?
It’s hardly comparable to being kidnapped, brought to the U.S.A. in chains, bought, sold, forced to work, beaten, is it? virtually ALL of the taxes we pay are uncollectable
Agreed. That’s because most of the taxes we pay were not intended by the Constitution and are not compatible with a free society.
No. “Structuring” is deliberately holding transactions to less than $10,000 to avoid the reporting requirements of the law.
And what is wrong with that, except to someone who arbitrarily invented an illegal law. Knowing what we do with our money is NOT one of the responsibilities given to the fedgov in the Constitution. THEY are the ones breaking the law.
Geno
Said this on October 18th, 2007 at 10:49am:
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“The original point remains, Mr. Hovind claims no one has told him what laws he violated, yet the specific sections of the law that he was charged with violating are spelled out on each count of the indictment. Either Hovind did not read the indictment (which I doubt), or he is an idiot (which I also doubt), or he is being less than truthful.”
As the original poster, I have still seen no answer to this question on the blog. Do any Hovind supporters wish to respond?
[EDITOR'S NOTE: Having seen the tax-related debate rage back and forth for over a year I can state that you are hardly the original poster on this. Some folks may be tired of reiterating their positions.
Folks, a friendly reminder that not many issues get solved within blogs. Each person can have their say, selectively read responses, type more to prove their side is the completely correct one, and then wait for more responses, ad infimum.
Discourse and debate are good things. Wanting to argue or to push others down so they can stand atop the heap of the vanquished, short term and foolish. P.A.
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." ]
Blessed are you (matt 5:5), brothers and sisters, who do not get caught up in pointless arguments(phil 2:14-15, tit 3:9) posted by people who have no light in them(eph 4:17-18). Pray for them(matt 5:44), but do not engage them. The enemy seeks to drain your strength by sending his children at you. I’m sure you all see it day in and out. This world is a mindfield. Distractions follow distractions and it is all an attempt to make us ineffective for the Kingdom. The enemy knows he cant claim our souls, but he knows how to make us lame, and has honed his skill for hundreds of years. My opinion would be to rebuke with the word, and continue on in prayer(1 thess 5:17) for our brother.
If in the end brother Hovind broke U.S. law, then we will be at his side from now until then, as one body(eph 4:15-16), lifting him up, as he serves time. If he is innocent then truth will win out.(1 pet 2:13-20)
“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone…” I say do not judge Kent Hovind. Go dwell on your own sins, and repent.
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad”
(matt 7:1-5)
Brother Hovind, if you read this, know we love you. Brothers and sisters, if you read this, continue your support and be happy for him. its a hard concept to grasp, but suffering for or Lord is a blessing! and we should almost be jealous of him if it wasnt for the plenty of suffering to go around. “And they departed from the presence of the council, REJOICING that they were counted WORTHY to suffer shame for his name.”- acts 5:41.
Moses spent how long in isolation on mount sinai with nothing to focas on but our God? How blessed a man was moses because of it! may you be blessed too brother Hovind!
Gorge,
Many thanks for your congratulations – I did indeed pass my exams and am now (happily, so far) employed as a lawyer. Well, a trainee one anyway.
I’m a great supporter of Christians in Britain. In fact, I’ve always said that I’m very much in favour of religion; it’s belief in God that worries me. Flippancy aside, however, I’ve no objection to being sympathetic to those forced into breaking the law under certain circumstances. I try to keep an open mind.
GANF {MICHAEL} & PAUL ABRAMSON 10/17/07 Subject: Angels & Nephilm Part 1
Hi! I have been studying this subject for a while, & if you guys don’t mind putting up with me, please allow me share what I have come up with so far. I would love to pick somebody’s brains on the subject!
First of all: LORD JESUS, please protect our minds & our hearts from the unseen supernatural enemy that is all around us, & please protect all those who blog on here & pay attention to what we are saying, whether they know You or not; LORD, please protect them and keep them safe from the evil ones because You shed Your own blood to make atonement for our sins. Please LORD, grant us this request.
Paul, you asked, “What makes you think that angels were created during Creation Week?” My answer is that I think they were created on the second day of Creation week & here is why: Colossians 1:16 says, For by Him {JESUS} were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him. [17] And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. When the whole passage of Genesis 1:1 -2:4 is read as a whole unit, there is no room for what Chuck Missler describes as the belief of some about tohu v bohu & the word ‘but’ at the beginning of verse two.[Better known as the Gap Theory.] Let’s start with verse 1:6 ‘And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. [8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. Verse 14 says ‘And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the Heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and for years. [15] And let them be for lights in the firmament to give light upon the earth: and it was so.’ Then in verse 20 it talks about birds flying above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. In the Hebrew it says that birds fly on the ‘face of the Raqia’[Firmament/heaven]. Notice that the scriptures say that there is a body of water beyond the perimeters of outer space, & that it incases outer space. Beyond that body of water is the 3rd Heaven described by Paul in 2 Cor 12:2. The 2nd Heaven would be the Raqia or ‘outer-space’ or the firmament. The 1st Heaven would be the earth’s atmosphere. Now go back to verse 1:2. Verse 2 describes a huge mass of water that is big enough to contain the whole universe before it is stretched out. Inside this mass of water somewhere is the location of where the future earth is going to be [just like a point on a real-estate map], but as of the first day of Creation, there was nothing there, not even the core of the earth! It was tohu v bohu! [without form and contained nothing!]. When we first read this verse, we tend to think of the Spirit of God hovering over the surface of the waters that covered the earth, but that’s not what it’s talking about here. It’s talking about the Spirit of God hovering over a mass of water that contains the whole universe!
In verse 3 God says “Is Light” and is light. Verse 4 says that He divides between the light & between the darkness. Verse 5 says in the Hebrew that He calls to light day [which means ‘to be hot’] and to darkness calls night [which means ‘twist’] and is dusk[singular] and is dawn[singular] day[singular] one-only-first [which in Hebrew is the word ‘echad’.] The ultra-Orthodox Jews maintain that ‘echad’ is used because, as of the 1st day, God was alone & He didn’t make angels until the 2nd day. In scripture Angels are known as angels of light 2 Cor 11:14. Light had to be created before angels could be created. In Isaiah 14:12 Lucifer is referred to as the ‘son of the morning’. Well, he can’t be a ‘son of the morning’ before ‘morning’ existed! According to the scriptures, the order of a 24 hour period is that there is evening and then there is morning! [It’s not the other way around!] Job 38:4 & 7 says that when God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy. God didn’t lay the foundations of the earth until day 3! See verse 9 & 10 of Genesis 1. [And at that point Lucifer was still a holy angel.]
I’m going to blog part one on, and then, Lord willing, I will blog on the next section later on today.
GANF {MICHAEL} & PAUL ABRAMSON 10/17/07 Subject: Angels & Nephilim Part 2
Now for the subject of Nephilim. Out of all the Bible commentaries that I’ve read this far on the subject, Chuck Missler is the only one who gets it right. One of the things that the other Bible commentaries all seem to struggle with is that angels are always males in the scriptures. With that comes the notion that they weren’t given the seed to reproduce.[And that makes sense.] On top of that Matthew 22:30 insinuates that in Heaven the holy angels don’t marry. See also Mark 12:25.
In the past few weeks I have been translating Genesis chapter 6 from Hebrew to English word for word so that I can see what the actual Hebrew says. This is by no means exhaustive, & it is limited to my own perspective & understanding, but here’s what I’ve been able to dig up so far:
6:1 vi y’he key hechel ha adam la rov al penay ha adamah oo v’not you-la-do la hem :
6:1 & it-was that began the man to become-many on face-of the earth & daughters were-born to them :
[The first things that becomes obvious when this passage is read in its context is that ‘daughters’ refers to the descendants of Adam. None of his male descendants are singled out as being the parent of those daughters. See 6:4.]
6:2 vi yar v’nay ha ELOHIM et v’not ha adam key tovot henah
6:2 & saw sons of ELOHIM et daughters-of the man/men that beautiful they-are
[The 2nd thing that is obvious when this passage is translated directly from the Hebrew is that the ‘sons of Elohim’ are angels. [Job 1:6 & 2:1]. The only other human that would qualify to be a ‘son of God’ at this point in history is Adam.]
vi ye-choo la hem nashiym me kol asher bacharu :
& they-took to them ‘wives’ from all that they-select :
[The word is translated ‘wives’ instead of ‘women’ because of the meaning in context used here of the word ‘they-took’. In this context it would mean ‘to take a wife’ as used in other places in scripture. However, this cannot be a legitimate marriage because angels & man are classified as 2 different kinds of flesh. Jude puts this in the same category as Sodom & Gomorrah [Jude7].
There weren’t any demon possessed people before the Flood because the ‘demons’ were the creation of the angel-women union, so the notion of the angels possessing men’s bodies to accomplish this is a fallacy.[See also Chuck Missler work on this from http://www.khouse.org ] Besides that, if that were the case, then why aren’t demon possessed people producing ‘Nefilim’ nowadays? Jude indicates that the angels lusted after the women. That sort of thing doesn’t happen outside some sort of flesh. Apparently the fallen angels [Nefilim] were in their own flesh when they committed this sin. Also, because 6:2 uses the phrase ‘they took to them’, this doesn’t leave room for the old notion of demon possession either. The whole notion of an angel-women union is so abhorrent, & Western Anglo thought in the past didn’t even allow for it, so that’s why Biblical commentators have given all kinds of ideas that skirted the issue. In non western cultures, where demon possession is out in the open for display, the concept of an angel-women union isn’t a difficulty. And it’s not a difficulty among pagans where witchcraft is practiced. It’s where witchcraft originated from!
As it was in the days of Noach, so shall it be… The women of the Nephilim were the ones whose hands rocked the cradles of the heroes of old. In other words they ruled instead of the sons of Adam. Sound familiar?]
6:3 vi yomer YAHWEH lo yadon RUCHIY va adam lay olam b’ shawgam
6:3 & says YAHWEH not struggle-in-opposition MY-SPIRIT with men to forever for *straying-them.
[*What it says in the Hebrew is totally different than the English! The English versions translate this as ‘also’, & leave out ‘for straying them’.
NASB # 7683: shagag [992d]; a prim root; to go astray, commit sin or error:– because also (1), goes astray (1), misled(1), sinned(1), went astray(1) [Genesis 6:3 is the only place where it is translated as ‘also’ in either KJV or NASB!]
Strongs #7683 comes from Strongs #7683 root word: shagag ‘to stray’; (fig.) sin, deceived, err, go astray, sin ignorantly [see rest]
b’shawgam: 3rd person plural masculine see pg 119 Davidson…….Gen 6:3 to err, commit an error. fem. d. 11c, error, sin through ignorance.
Not only is this word plural, but it’s also a duel, meaning that there is 2 of the subject. See Genesis chapter 1 …2-heavens, 2-waters etc. for comparison. It’s probably referring to the half-man-half-angel as one category, & the purebred-man as the other category.]
[Man was suppose to subdue the earth, but instead he had let himself become subdued by the Nephilim!]
hu vasar v hayu yamay mayah v ay-esreem shanah
he-is flesh & shall-be his-days 100 & 20 year
>>CONTINUED NEXT ENTRY>>
GANF {MICHAEL} & PAUL ABRAMSON 10/17/07 Subject: Angels & Nephilim Part 3
6:4 ha Nefilym hi-u va aretz ba yamiym huhem
6:4 the *Fallen[angels] were on earth in days those
[*This word means to be cast down or to fall from one party to another. In this context it’s a discription of the angels that turned away from YAHWEH. It’s their name! Compare this with Gen 5:22 & 24, where it says ‘The’ Elohim. Here it’s ‘The’ Nephilim as an opposing political party [& it’s going to do the same thing when we get to Noach & his walk with ‘The’ Elohim 6:9, 11.] This is not the Hebrew word for giants.]
v gam achareiy chen asher yavow b’ney ha Elohim
& increased *after **then that *** would-come-in sons-of God
[*means ‘to stay, tarry’]
[**means ‘to exist, stand, be established. When used here with achareiy, they are translated as ‘after-then’]
[***means ‘to enter, come or go in, to have intercourse’]
el b’not ha adam v yaldu la hem
to daughters-of the man/men & would-bear to them
[‘sons The Elohim’ is one party. The other party is ‘daughters of the man/men’.
The ‘Nefilym’ refers to both the angels involved in this sin and their sons. [Later when their bodies drowned in The Flood, these half human-half angel beings became the demons. Their fathers are locked up in pits of darkness {see Jude}. In the New Testament demons have no legitimate authority. You never see anybody in the New Testament casting out an angel. You only see demons being cast out.
Why did God allow this to happen? Maybe it was so that the evil one couldn’t claim that he was out numbered in the long war against God. If he dragged one third of the angels down with him {Rev 12:4} & part of those one third were locked up in pits of darkness, who would he have to take their place? 120 years was the amount of time allotted him to produce his future warriors. Gen 6:3 is right in the middle of this whole explanation about the Nephilim/Nefilym. [It didn’t have anything to do with how long Noach was given to build the Ark].
When Cain’s descendant Lamech took 2 wives, he opened the door for acceptance of plural marriage to his own undoing, because now that ‘society’ accepted plural marriage, the Nefilym in all likely hood took a multitude of wives in order to build up their own armies, who in turn brought down the descendants of Cain’s descendant Lamech & everybody else except the 8 on the Ark.
Why aren’t the sons of the Nephelim still being produced? It’s because the angels that were involved in this ultimate degradation of the family are now locked up in pits of darkness in the deepest pits of Hell, otherwise, it would still be going on! Jude 6 & 2 Peter 2:4-5.]
[Noach wasn’t told to build the Ark until after Shem, Cham, & Yafet were married adults. By that time all his other descendants (if they existed) were dead! My guess is that the Nephilim killed all his other descendants in retaliation for his preaching against them. (See ‘Noach’s sermon notes’ 6:10.) By comparison, the names of Job’s 10 children who died in the great wind are never listed either. See Job 1. Also the Nephilim may have wiped out the rest of his family because of the prophesy concerning his name.]
haymah ha giboriym asher may olam ahn-ahay ha shem
they-are the mighty/powerful that from *old men the **name
[*that ancient time]
[**fame/renown/reputation. ‘Ha Shem’ means ‘The Name’ & it generally refers to God’s Name. In the way that it’s used here, it means more than just ‘heroes of old’. It is an indication that these Nephilim were worshipped as dieity instead of the Creator. It’s a pre-Flood parallel with the anti-christ. If they were just men of renown, it would be ‘ahnshay-shem’, not ‘ahnshay-ha-shem’. [When Jewish people say ‘HaShem’, they are referring to the name of God which is YAHWEH. They consider His name so sacred that they won’t even pronounce it, but instead say ‘HaShem’(The Name). The term ‘HaShem’ is generally reserved for God’s Name alone!!]
6:5 vi yar YAHWEH key rabah ratt ha adam ba aretz
6:5 & He-sees YAHWEH that great evil/broken-in-pieces the men in earth
vi kol yetzer mach-shvot lee-bow rak ra kol hi yom :
& all intention[to-mould-into-a-set-form] thought-of *his-heart only evil/broken-destroyed all the day:
[*The physical heart; Frenquently for life, the vital principle. To the heart is ascribed thought, reasoning, understanding, will, judgment, design, affection, love, hatred, courage, fear, sorrow. See Davidson pg 406]
6:6 vi yee-nah-chem YAHWEH key asah et ha adam ba aretz
6:6 & *He-grieves/mourns YAHWEH that He-made et the man on earth
[*It means to grieve & mourn to the point that you change the situation.
That’s why some English versions say ‘repented’.The meaning of the word is much more intense than how it gets translated into English!]
vi yeetatzev el libo
& *He-travails/suffers-pain/grieves-intensely to His-heart
[*The same word is used in Genesis 3:16 where God is telling Chavvah about the sorrow & painful toil she will have in childbirth & then in 3:17 where God describes Adam’s painful toil. Hebrew is spoken in the present tense, & this word is future tense. Then it’s used in Lamech’s prophesy over Noach 5:29]
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[EDITOR'S NOTE: Adding some comments to your excellent posts - under the new blog posting (Oct. 18). P.A. ]
GANF {MICHAEL} & PAUL ABRAMSON 10/17/07 Subject: Angels & Nephilim Part 4
6:7 vi yomer YAHWEH emcheh et ha adam asher baratiy mayal penay ha adamah
6:7 & said YAHWEH 1-will-erase[Strong’s#4229] et the man that created-I upon face the ground
may adam ad behemah ad remes v ad off ha shamayim
from man to beasts/in-the-everywhere to creeping things & to fowl the heavens
key nechamtiy key asiytim
because *grieves/mourns-I that made-I-them
[*It means to grieve & mourn to the point that you change the situation. See 5:29 ‘comforts’ & 6:6 ‘grieves/mourns’ .
The first 2 letters spell ‘Noach’]
6:8 v Noach matza chein be iyneiy YAHWEH :
6:8 & Noah finds *grace in eyes-of YAHWEH :
[*comes from Strong’s #2603 ‘to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior’ ]
So who were the sons of God in Genesis 6? Jesus wasn’t born yet, so it doesn’t refer to Him. Adam is God’s son because God made him; God was his Parent. Adam’s wife bore him sons. They are called the sons of Adam (Genesis 5:3-4, Luke 3:38, Jude 14), not the sons of God. Therefore, this passage of scripture is not talking about Adam’s sons. The only other ones that would fit into the category during this time of history would be the angels, both good and bad: They were directly created by God instead of being born. That would qualify them for being His sons. Job 1:6 and 2:1 calls them exactly that. Job1:6 says, “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them”. Job 2:1 says, “Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.”
What does the New Testament say about Genesis 6:1-4? There are 2 passages of scripture in particular that deal specifically about this incident. They are Jude 6-7 and 2 Peter 2:4-11. The word ‘angels’ used in each one of those passages is the Greek word ‘aggelos’. The Lord Jesus uses this same word 28 times in the Gospels to refer to angels. The other 52 times that ‘aggelos’ is used in the New Testament (from Acts to Revelation) also refers to angels. These 2 passages have at least 4 basic things to say about Genesis 6:
#1 They were angels, and they copulated with women, and they had sons by them.
#2 This is the same category as homosexuality.
#3 The punishment is fire. The fallen angels who committed this sin are in pits of darkness in Hell. The inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are in Hell. #4 God is going to cleanse the earth and the heavens with fervent heat before He comes back to reign upon the earth. Sodom and Gomorrah was just a taste of what He is going to do. [Apparently Pompeii was destroyed because of sexual sins too.]
What do the ancient people say about such things? Josephus says that they were angels, and that the tradition in his day was that their offspring did what resembled what the Grecians call giants (as in Greek Mythology). The translator of Josephus says that this notion was the constant opinion of antiquity. (See Josephus on the subject, page 28 ‘Josephus, Complete Works’)
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GANF {MICHAEL} & PAUL ABRAMSON 10/17/07 Subject: Angels & Nephilim Part 5
Do angels have any kind of flesh of their own? Jude says they do, because they went after strange ‘flesh’, meaning ‘flesh that wasn’t of their own type’. It’s my notion that ‘flesh’ is something that the angels have the ability to change on their own person. There are some animals that have the ability to change the color of their skin in order to camouflage themselves. Maybe angels’ flesh works on similar principals. Maybe they only ‘wear flesh’ when necessary because it gets in the way. Think about the logistics from a scientific aspect. You could travel through space a lot faster if you didn’t have flesh to slow you down. Somehow they have the ability to control the molecular structure of their flesh and other things around them. Although Christ is not an angel, after He rose from the dead, He was able to enter a room even though the doors were closed! (See John 20:19-29). During another time, before He was crucified, He walked on water as if it were solid ground! (Matt 14:25, Mark 6:48, Jn 6:19). When the angel let Peter out of prison in Acts 12, his chains fell off and the iron gates opened without the angel even touching them. Many times in the Bible when angels appeared, they looked like men, and acted like men. In Genesis they ate the food Abraham gave to them (Gen 18:8), and grabbed Lot and his family by the arms and dragged them out of Sodom (Gen 19:16). You have to have nerve sensations to move body parts. If you don’t have a sense of feeling, as in leprosy, your body parts get damaged, or, as in the case of somebody who is paralyzed from the waist down, you can’t move your legs, or wiggle your toes. You have to have nerves that feel things in order to move body parts. It’s my notion that even though angels are ministering winds, and flames of fire (Hebrews 1:14), when they clothe themselves in flesh, the flesh has to have nerves. With that in mind, they can’t ‘indulge’ as the scriptures indicate (Jude 7), if they don’t have some kind of nerves. They wouldn’t be able to ‘indulge’ if they were using somebody else’s flesh. Nowhere in Genesis 6, or 2 Peter, or Jude, or anywhere else in the Bible does it ever say that the fallen angels possessed men’s bodies to go into the daughters of men. That idea is assumed by many, but it contradicts the notion of the sin being a co-habitation of strange flesh. If the evil angels borrowed male human bodies, then why are the demon possessed men today who sleep with women, not producing giants? And why didn’t the good angels ever borrow male human bodies when they appeared? Jude 7 says that the evil angels went after ‘strange flesh’. They couldn’t have gone after strange flesh unless they had some flesh of their own! If Satan has the ability to turn himself into anything he wants to, for example, an angel of light in 2 Cor 11:14, and a snake in God’s garden in Gen 3:1-4, then it would stand to reason that his fallen angels also have the same ability. They can do things with their flesh that we can’t. Consider this: If there are angels all around us, how is it that we can’t see them? It’s because they have the ability to make themselves invisible and ‘unfeelable’. (2 Kings 6:16-17) If they are in the room, you don’t feel yourself bump into them!
Psalm 78:24-25 indicates that Angels eat real food. The logical reasoning here is that it takes a physical body to consume food. Does a spiritual body need food? [Apparently, even ‘beings’ outside the flesh have sensations of pain and thirst. Consider Luke 16:19-31. Here Jesus is talking about a rich man in Hades across the chasm from Abraham’s bosom before Jesus empties Abraham’s Bosom. Even though the rich man is outside his flesh, he is still in agonizing pain! He wanted Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and then come over to him and cool off his tongue. Can a person outside their flesh transfer water? How is it that they are seeable? (1 Sam 28:12-14; Luke 16:27-28; Matthew 17:3) There is much that we don’t understand!]
If angels weren’t suppose to procreate, then the logical reasoning would be that they weren’t given male seed. So the next question would be, ‘How were they able to reproduce?’ In a physical body, every cell has a master blue print in its DNA. Angel’s physical bodies are made of a substance that never dies. Its elements consist of eternal physical life. Angels never die (Luke 20:36). The same angels are still around that were created about 6000 years ago. Maybe they took their own cells (male) and combined them with the female egg to produce sons. Maybe the only thing that had to happen was for one of their cells to join itself with a woman’s egg. The answer could be a lot simpler than we think. In any case, we now have ‘Dolly the sheep’, accomplished by men who have genetically inferior minds compared to what Adam had. If some inferior brains can accomplish that, how much more do you think an angel can accomplish if he sets his mind to it? Remember, these fallen ones were at war against God, and they were very determined to win!
Can the Nephilim produce offspring now? The fallen angels who originally produced offspring through human women are all locked up in pits of darkness in the deepest parts of Hell. That in itself should be a deterrent to anyone of the fallen angels who are still roaming around. The demons, if they are the spirits of these offspring, are bodiless. They don’t have anyway to appear in a flesh form as angels do. Because they don’t have their own ‘accessible flesh’, they don’t have any angelic DNA to work from. What about the fallen angels who are still loose? Genesis 3:15 says that Satan has a seed.
Paul,
Thank you for the correct re: Nephilim. I should have spent more time researching before posting.
Welder’s Wife,
Please accept my deep appreciation for the completeness of your response to my original question!! I particularly appreciate your return to the Hebrew text.
It will take me a while to digest all that you wrote. Thanks again.
Michael
It looks like this topic may be moving to the next Blog Entry. I’ll keep track of both as we continue this discussion
My dear brother in Christ Jesus,
Thank you for continuing to give others hope. My wife and I are praying that the Lord protects and strengthens you. Again you have shown me that the Lord is in control and I must trust in him. I do pray the Lord comes soon and evacuates us from this sin cursed earth. I am so anxious for the worlds new management. I can hardly wait to see with my resurrected eyes all of the colors of the rainbow, to walk an streets of gold, to never feel pain or fear, to be in the presents of our Creator and Lord
Peace be with you, RR
Good to hear from you Kent, glad to see that God is keeping you well. I can’t imagine what it must be like to be seperated from your family for such a long period of time. All things working together for good kinda doesn’t cut in the lonely moments, I can understand. Keep hanging in there brother. I’ve started distributing dvds now myself, so its only a matter of time till that punk called Satan is on my case. Just before we see him cast into hell, I’m going to ask God for permission to kick him straight in his jaw(hopefully dislocating it and breaking it at the same time), break all his ribs and slam a dunce cap on his head. This is a tough time for mankind, especially for believers. All these arrogant folks who have doubted you integrity and have rejected God. It will be a cutting day for them on the day of Judgement. I see why Christ said “There shall be weeping and nashing of teeth”. I especially understand the weeping part on at least 2 counts:
1. People who mocked the gospel and snubbed Christianity in favor of their lusts will finally realise that we were telling the truth all along and that they would indeed die for their own sins if they didn’t accept Christ Jesus. A lump in the throat would be an understatement for the feeling they would be experiencing.
2. When folks will be lining up for judgement, when they see someone ahead of them getting thrown into hell for being a better person(in the worlds eyes) than them and word being passed down the line that the blood of Christ was truly the only means of salvation for them, a bucket load of tears will be shed by folks before they even reach that judgement seat. That judgement day is going to be messy, words cannot describe the mixed emotions that will be flying about.
You however have a better outcome to look forward to. You have fought a good fight and still continue to do so. Verbal Da Mentor sends you some personal encouragement. You have set a great example for Christians to follow. Your jailtime has probably done more benefit for others that you will ever know(until you get to heaven). Keep strong brother and I’m praying for you, your family and your ministry everyday like many other folks here. Stay blessed.
Dear Dr. Hovind, you will not remember me but a few years back you came to a little town in mo, ( Mtn View) at a lttle bapitst Church and I got to meet you, it was one of the biggest blessing that I’ve had in my life, ever since I was about four I’ve been in love with your videos and have used many of your (God’s/ Bible) teachings to help many of my Christin friends that have meshed the Bible with evolution, I am at this time in my life atteding Bible collage in San Antonio tx, ( international bible center) where after I complete and get a degree, plan on teaching the orgins class at the school (based on your method of teaching and debating) so I just wanted to express my thanks and prayers ( my school has been praying for you and Jo,)
your brother in Christ,
Stetson Schwien.
Hello brother Kent Hovind,
Grace, peace & joy of the Lord Jesus be upon you.
Thanksever so much for sharing your communion with the Lord with us.
The Lord knows you’re going to pass through this situation & he has made a provision for you. I pray in the Lord’s infinite mercies, you’ll receive all that the Lord has provided for you to go through this situation successfully in Jesus name. Heaven holds all the secrets for all all of our burdens, trials & cares & we’ll never know till we’re there. Persevere beloved brother Kent, Jesus is with you
Sade Tennyson.
Verbal da Mentor said on October 20:
“You have fought a good fight and will continue to do so…You have set a great example for Christians to follow.”
Verbal da Mentor,
Do you really think that Kent Hovind is an example to Christians. Mr Hovind was found guilty by a jury of his peers of failing to pay his due taxes. For one who supposedly followed Christ he seems to have ignored his Master’s injunction to “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s”. As yet he has not shown the least repentance for his failure to obey the law. And in case you believe that he was unaware that failure to pay taxes is a criminal offence there is a legal maxim which I am sure applies in America as it does in Britain: ignorantia lex non excusat -ignorance of the law is no excuse.
In similar fashion he claimed bankruptcy when he was not bankrupt. And what is worse, in his statement to the court claimed that he had taken a vow of poverty. I do not know about you but having a mortgage, three cars, and running a business which was undoubtedly a success from a financial point of view does not strike me as the actions of one who has taken a vow of poverty.
On his flights he generally ensured that he was upgraded to first class (preferring not to mix with the hoi polloi). Again hardly the actions of a poor man.
Finally, he possessed a number of firearms which, I understand, he was quite capable of using. I am well aware of the American obsession with guns. I am also aware that Jesus enjoined his disciples not to carry weapons and indeed stated that “those who live by the sword shall die by the sword”.
All in all, I do not think that Kent Hovind’s actions were those of one who followed Jesus. That is my opinion based on his own words. Those of his followers should bear in mind that it is easy to say ‘I believe’. At the end of the day it is actions and not words which count.
Please reflect on what I have said. Do not immediately assume that everything that Mr Hovind says is true. As St Paul says, test everything.
Regards,
Dermot