From: Kent Hovind
Sent: August 16, 2007
To: Joseph in Egypt 1780 ± BC
Subject: Re: Discussions on Joseph’s Prison Sentence
(Genesis 39:7-20)
Knee-mail Always On, Anyone, Anytime, Anywhere!
Fees Accessed if not qualified for free access to knee-mail; see Isaiah 59:1-3; Matthew 21:22; and John 14:13-14 for details.
KH: Hey Joseph! How are you doing?
Joe: Well….from man’s perspective or God’s?
KH: I’ll take God’s first.
Joe: Everything is awesome! God is the Supreme Creator of everything. He is all powerful, all knowing, in all places and fortunately—all loving and just. He has never failed to keep His promises. I’m honored to be a child in His family. Everything is great!
KH: Wow! I agree!! I can’t wait to go live with Him. Now, how about from man’s perspective?
Joe: Oh! It looks hopeless! I was just thrown (literally) into prison on false charges. I’m in leg irons (Psalm 105:18) in a cold, damp dungeon (Genesis 41:14) with lots of other royal prisoners. They all lost their case in court. I don’t think anyone can win in Pharoah’s courts! The future for me looks bad—from man’s perspective.
KH: I know exactly what you mean. Hey, how much time did they give you to serve? When do you get out?
Joe: What? First of all, I don’t serve time; I serve God. Secondly, all the king’s sentences are for life. No one gets out of here alive unless the king himself decides it.
KH: Have you explained how you were framed under false charges and put in an appeal?
Joe: To Pharoah? Are you kidding? It would be a waste of time and money. I did put in my appeal to God. He can turn the heart of any pagan king (Proverbs 21:1).
God watched over my father, Jacob, my grandpa Isaac, and my great-grandfather, Abraham. I trust Him to turn all this to His glory like He always does.
KH: Why did God let this happen to you?
Joe: Oh, He doesn’t always tell me why, but He always does what is right.
KH: Do they let you have a Bible to read while you are there?
Joe: A what?
KH: Never mind; it hasn’t all been written yet. It is God’s preserved Word telling how He created the world all the way to how it will end.
Joe: I don’t know about how it will end, but my dad has the preserved sacred records (Romans 3:2) that covers from the creation story (Genesis 1:1) all the way up to my uncle Esau’s family tree (Genesis 36:43; also see Creation Seminar Part Seven, Question and Answers, “Who wrote Genesis?”)
KH: Well, your story is in the finished book.
Joe: My story! Why? I’m just a regular guy who has been sold into slavery and ended up in prison. This has happened to thousands of other people. Why is my story in there?
KH: I guess God likes to get the glory by fixing hopeless situations like yours. God must like the way you are trusting Him. Most of His children get angry and bitter at God when bad things happen to them.
Joe: Why? That won’t do any good. Hey, you said my story is in there. My dad was writing some things when I was sold into slavery. Is that going to be part of the sacred record (II Peter 1:21)?
KH: Yes, it sure is (Genesis 37:2 – 49:32)!
Joe: Wow! Does it tell how my current situation turns out?
KH: Oh, it sure does!
Joe: Well tell me, how long will I stay in prison? Do I ever get my job back with Potiphar? Will I get to see my ten half brothers again? Do I get to see my brother Benjamin? I miss him most of all. Do I get to see my dad again? Is he even still alive?
KH: I’m sorry, Joe, but knee-mail blocks answers to questions like that. All I can say is that God never fails or lies or abandons His children. You will fine, Joe, real fine! Trust Him!
Joe: Okay. Hey Kent, so will you.
KH: Thanks. Hey, how long have you known the Lord?
Joe: Well, I was just a young child when my mother died giving birth to my brother Benjamin (Genesis 35:18-19); so I was basically raised by my three stepmothers. None of them really wanted me and they had lots of ways of showing their resentment as did my ten half brothers. I guess they all picked up their mothers’ attitudes. I soon learned to avoid them as much as I could and spend time by myself.
My Dad, Jacob, saw this and started to spend lots more personal time with me. He took me with him quite often and taught me the business side of the sheep ranching industry. He also taught me all about the things of God that he had learned from his dad and grandfather.
Dad even let me see and read the original clay tablets written by Adam, Noah, and the patriarchs. They have been passed down for centuries but perfectly preserved. They are now entrusted to Dad. I don’t know who gets them next. Maybe Reuben; he is the oldest.
The story of the creation and flood are proof that God is in control of the world and can handle a little guy like Pharoah or Potiphar.
KH: So what are you doing?
Joe: I read a lot and pray. I know this is all part of my training for God’s future service. My dad taught me that I’m a child of the King of Heaven. That makes me a prince! Princes must go through a lot of special training to be ready to work in the palace with the king.
He says that kings’ children must walk, talk, and act a lot differently than regular people. It is often a very long training program that they go through. It lasts for years with refresher courses that last for life.
My dad started training me, but my brothers were jealous and sold me into slavery (Genesis 37:27). When Potiphar bought me (Genesis 37:36), things got a lot better for a while. I was promoted to business manager of his large organization. God really blessed, and I learned a lot. More training!
Then my master’s wife tried to seduce me every day for weeks! I always said, “No” because I knew that God watches everything (Proverbs 15:3), and even this temptation was part of my training to serve in His court one day. God sends all kinds of subtle tests to prepare us.
KH: I know. It is so cool! It’s sort of like the movie, “Karate Kid.” The kid thought the master had enslaved him to sand the floor, but it was really training to fight the bully. The Karate Kid, Daniel, finally got the picture.
Joe: What are you talking about? My dungeon is way beyond “cool”; it’s cold. I understood that part just fine, but a “kid” is a baby goat. We don’t even let them on the floor and would never even try to train them to fight a bull! They wouldn’t stand a chance! Also, what is a “movie?”
KH: Oh boy! I’m sorry. That would take a long time to explain all that. Let’s just say that sometimes things happen to us that we don’t like or understand, but God uses it all for His glory and our good (Romans 8:28).
Joe: Now that I understand real well.
KH: I’m going through a test in my prison right now as well. Satan keeps telling me that I’m finished, done, washed up. He says he is going to destroy me, my family, and the creation ministry.
Joe: He’s a liar (John 8:44). Don’t listen to him. How is your prison? Do you wear leg irons like us? How long is your chain? Do you have mean rats or can you train them? How often do you get beatings from your mean guards? Do you get one small meal of rotten food scraps every day at least? The guys in here tell me that’s the way it is in all the prisons they have been to. Is it the same where you are?
KH: Well….no. I’d be embarrassed to tell you about mine. It’s a lot different than yours! How do you keep a good attitude in there?
Joe: I just keep looking at the bigger picture and trusting God to know what He is doing for my training. I’m pretty worried about Pharoah, though. I don’t think he realizes that he just locked up one of God’s children (Psalm 105:15)! I know God will step in and judge him when my training is over, so I pray that I will get a chance to tell him about God so he can repent before it is too late! Anyway, I keep a good spirit because I don’t focus on the prison or the problems but the promises of God. God made a lot of promises to my family.
My dad actually saw God and even wrestled with Him (Genesis 32:24-30). He told me the story hundreds of times. He still limps today from that experience. I don’t think his walk will ever be like it used to be.
My grandpa Isaac also met God. He personally heard Him speak and stop his dad from killing him (Genesis 22:11). I was only thirteen when grandpa Isaac died, but he must have told me that story a thousand times. I can still repeat it word for word. He also told me about all the times his dad, that’s my great-grandpa Abraham, met with God and heard Him speak (Genesis 12:1; 13:14; 14:18; 15:1-21; 17:1-22; 18:1-33; 22:1-18).
I wish my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great- grandpa Shem had lived a little longer so that I could have met him! My dad knew him. (See Longevity Chart in Seminar Notebook.) Shem told my dad all about the world before the big Flood, life on the ark, the tower of Babel (Genesis 11) and how the earth was divided in the days of Peleg (Genesis 10:25). I loved hearing those stories!
God has a very special calling on my family. He has always provided for us even when there is a bad-looking situation like mine right now. I trust Him to fix it. Are you trusting Him to fix yours, Kent?
KH: Well……it has been hard, but I’d say yes! I’m learning more and more each day how to lean on the everlasting arms.
Joe: I guess all we both can do is wait on the Lord (Psalm 27:14) to step in and override these politicians. I’ll see you when we get to Heaven. Then you can explain why a kid would want to prepare to fight a bull on a sand floor. I really don’t get any of that.
KH: Okay. I’ll see ya in Heaven and explain it all. Good night for now.
Joe: Good night, Kent.
Are evolution-believing pastors becoming the new Pharisees?
Jesus had to keep correcting them as they trusted their traditions instead of the Bible over and over.
“Have you not read…?” Jesus would ask – bringing them back to a literal reading of the Word.
“For it is written…” He taught them, as they were experts in all but what was most important.
Matthew 23 is where Jesus mostly directly addressed the non-Bible-believing (but very religious) leaders of the day. The Pharisees had a “different interpretation” of the Bible, rather than believing it to be accurate.
Matthew 23:12-15 “…And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. …”
In Genesis 1 it says 10 times “…and God said…”. And for each of the 6 literal days of Creation it says, “… an evening and a morning was the ## day…” Literal days. The universe, one could contend, was spoken into existence. And it was done 6000 years ago by God’s Words.
Matthew 4:4 “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Thank you Brother Kent, and Brother Paul, Brother Eric, and everyone else at CSE. I needed this today! I have my own ministry and I speak about Creation, evolution, and share the salvation plan with everyone who will listen, and I have never been backed down or proven wrong. This is because I make sure I am standing on the solid ground of truth before I open my mouth. Even the scoffers come back to me later and say,”you know, you were right”.
The reason for my note of thanks is that I sometimes feel I am alone in this fight, and do get a case of the mullygrubbs as a result. I read these posts and can feel you shoulder to shoulder with me.
So again thank you.
In the Masters service,
Michael A. Deas
THANK GOD WE HAVE THE BIBLE TO LEARN LIFES LESSONS.
THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE OUT HERE PRAYING FOR YOU AND AMERICA, KENT.
JEREMIAH 6:16
This one’s for PAUL ABRAMSON in answer to Nov 7th
Hi! You were asking about whether there is an underwater canyon that’s larger than the Grand Canyon. I’ve never thought about the question before. The answer is yes, but there’s more than one, & they weren’t all formed exactly the same way. There’s at least 20 of them! And the Grand Canyon is small by comparison!
Where do I start? The deepest canyons are in the Western Pacific Ocean. They are called ‘ocean trenches’. The deepest one is the Mariana Trench & it’s 6.78 miles below sea level. There are also five others that are over 6 miles deep & they too are located in the Western Pacific. Most of these arc shaped trenches are thousands of miles long & they connect at ‘cusps’. Here’s how they were formed: During the Flood, The Fountains of the Great Deep broke open all along the center of the Mid-Ocean Ridge that circles the globe. The Fountains of water were under intense pressure because of the ten miles of land mass weight above it. So, as the water traveled up the crack, it continually eroded away the material on the sides of the crack, ever widening it. When it reached a certain point, the ocean floor began to buckle upwards, because there was no longer any weight holding it down. This phenomena began first in the Atlantic Ocean. In turn, when the Atlantic Mid Ocean Ridge formed, the opposite side of the globe sucked inwards! The part that sucked inwards was the Western Pacific Ocean. As it sucked inwards towards the center of the earth, it formed those 16 trenches. [See ‘Ocean Trenches’ at http://www.creationscience.com [The Mid Ocean Ridge rose about 8 miles in the Atlantic. To compensate, the direct opposite side of the globe, which is the Western Pacific sucked inwards, & as a result became the location of the deepest section of the entire global ocean.]
There’s other types of underwater canyons that are also huge. The one that runs along the west side of South America was formed during the Flood when South America slid away from the Mid Ocean Ridge in the Atlantic. As the Western Continental mountain chain formed upwards, the ocean trench buckled downwards.
Another type of canyon exists in the Mid Ocean Ridge. These are long, straight, ‘canyons’ that from above look sort of like a long narrow loaf of bread that has been sliced into many slices, & it circles the globe! Most of these canyons are also ‘looong’ & there are some that stretch for thousands of miles They are located on the ‘higher’ elevation of the ocean floor! Throughout them are cross canyons where those ‘magnetic reversal controversies’ come from.
Then there are canyons at the edge of continents that were created similar to how the Grand Canyon was formed. The process started first with the ocean level being much lower than what it is today, by at least 300 feet, & possibly more than that. Then when some large body of water upstream breached, it cut the canyon. Later, at the end of the ice age the canyon became immersed as the ocean water level rose due to the ice melting. There’s lots of those guys around. The ones that are the most intriguing to me are the ones on the sea floor between Borneo & Java & that whole area. There’s also a couple between Australia & New Guinea. The reason why they are so intriguing to me is because the ocean level in those areas is so shallow. In those areas, most of the water is less than 60 feet deep.
An ‘ADD-ON’ TO GIANTS & PHOENICIANS IN AMERICA
There is a photo of the Piri Re’is Map at http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ25.html It’s based on 20 older maps, some of them dating back to the 4th century B.C. It shows the East Coast of the Americas & parts of the West Coast of Europe & Africa, & also part of Antarctica.
[EDITOR'S NOTE: The canyon (carved by rushing water, not a rip in the crust) I am thinking of is - I think - in the Arctic or off the Northwest coast of North America. Michael J. Oard discusses it in one of his talks, related to that latter stages of the Great Flood. But I have never looked it up; I don't recall the details off-hand. Undersea maps of the ocean floor hide a story of the past. Evolutionists believe "millions of years" and "slow changes" from "long ago" it was "long ago and far away" their fairy tales begin. No. Science and scientists are not in sync. The scientists are wrong yet again. Our mountain ranges show deep folding of layers, a past crumpling inward and upward. At one time there was tremendous lateral pressure. They "bent" instead of shattering. What is the logical conclusion? - __________. Of course, it was during a brief time when the new rock layers were still somewhat malleable. That was several thousand years ago.
Dr. Brown's hydroplate theory is one of the three main theories for how God caused the Great Flood (if He used something scientific). http://www.creationscience.com And his book, "In the Beginning" is an excellent scientific compendium of creation evidences. (Some authors write lots of titles with overlapping information.) Dr. Brown has written this one large book, and kept adding to and improving it. It is in its 7th Edition, as I recall.
A second theory is that God may have begun the Flood with a cometary bombardment on one side of the planet. Noah did not mention it in his account. It may have happened "on the other side" of the world that day. But one could contend that he saw the effects; volcanoes (the fountains of the great deep) began erupting worldwide. Super-cold comets would catalyze rainfall as it induced rapid atmospheric cooling in some areas. Perhaps it "collapsed the canopy" or whatever waters were suspended above. This theory is best described in Donald W. Patten's 1966 classic, http://www.creationism.org/patten/ "The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch". (Completely on-line for download.) Dr. Hovind uses a similar hypothesis in Seminar #6, "The Hovind Theory". http://shopping.drdino.com/view_item.php?id=830
AiG (Answers in Genesis) and some other creationists prefer a third theory, "Catastrophic Plate Tectonics". http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/tectonics.asp
If ... waters were washing over the Earth in continent-crossing tidal waves it could explain the existence of these huge long water-carved canyons in areas that are now settled, and deep underwater. The religion of evolution cannot explain how these canyons came to be. Creation science can. P.A. ]
Lord Jesus I pray you will comfort your child Kent. I pray that you will make it real to him that No Weapon formed against him can prosper. Help him Lord Jesus to forsake lying vanities and observe Mercy. Comfort his precious heart that beats to serve you. Help him to recall to his mind that it is of the Lord’s mercies that we are not consumed. That the Lord’s compassions fail not. They are new every morning and Great is Thy Faithfulness. Lord Jesus please strengthen Kent and give him renewed hope in you. You are all we have Lord Jesus. You are all we want. I pray in Jesus name.
Lamentations Chapter 3
1 I AM the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.
2 He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.
3 Surely against me is he turned; he turneth his hand against me all the day.
4 My flesh and my skin hath he made old; he hath broken my bones.
5 He hath builded against me, and compassed me with gall and travail.
6 He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old.
7 He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy.
8 Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.
9 He hath inclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made my paths crooked.
10 He was unto me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places.
11 He hath turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he hath made me desolate.
12 He hath bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.
13 He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.
14 I was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day.
15 He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.
16 He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he hath covered me with ashes.
17 And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity.
18 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:
19 Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.
20 My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.
21 This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.
22 It is of the LORD’s mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
24 The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.
25 The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
28 He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him.
29 He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
30 He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach.
31 For the LORD will not cast off for ever:
32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
34 To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth.
35 To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High,
36 To subvert a man in his cause, the LORD approveth not.
37 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
42 We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
43 Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied.
44 Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.
45 Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people.
46 All our enemies have opened their mouths against us.
47 Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction.
48 Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people.
49 Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission.
50 Till the LORD look down, and behold from heaven.
51 Mine eye affecteth mine heart because of all the daughters of my city.
52 Mine enemies chased me sore, like a bird, without cause.
53 They have cut off my life in the dungeon, and cast a stone upon me.
54 Waters flowed over mine head; then I said, I am cut off.
55 I called upon thy name, O LORD, out of the low dungeon.
56 Thou hast heard my voice: hide not thine ear at my breathing, at my cry.
57 Thou drewest near in the day that I called upon thee: thou saidst, Fear not.
58 O LORD, thou hast pleaded the causes of my soul; thou hast redeemed my life.
59 O LORD, thou hast seen my wrong: judge thou my cause.
60 Thou hast seen all their vengeance and all their imaginations against me.
61 Thou hast heard their reproach, O LORD, and all their imaginations against me;
62 The lips of those that rose up against me, and their device against me all the day.
63 Behold their sitting down, and their rising up; I am their musick.
64 Render unto them a recompence, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
65 Give them sorrow of heart, thy curse unto them.
66 Persecute and destroy them in anger from under the heavens of the LORD.
Comparing yourself to Joseph is way over the line. Need I remind you he was FALSELY accused. You CLEARLY broke the law!
P.A,
good post:-
Do ye not therefore err, because you know not the scriptures, nor the power of God?
it seems like a bit of a tautology in a way.
they are “the power” unto salvation.
God places the integrity of the Word above his very own Name?
Someone knows an enormous amount more about this subject than I do but it seems to me that slavery would not have been possible unless one tribe was willing to sell another into slavery. Then when slavery was established the biggest obstacle to freedom was not usurper authorities with whips but “other slaves” willing to turn in or even hunt down runaways.
For all of this God is not mocked nor his Word diminished. He shall have mercy on whom He shall have mercy.
Our God Reigns – now and forever. Amen.
[EDITOR'S NOTE: Lately have have been pondering the verse about God valuing His Word even above His Name. Psalm 138:2b "... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." P.A. ]
Dear Kent:
I love to hear your conversations. How often we read these stories and become so familiar with them that they just stay ‘stories’ and not accounts of real-life individuals who truly have gone through worse conditions that we could ever imagine. The Bible is SO relevent! and alive! and sharper than ANY two-edged sword! Praise God. How difficult it must have been for Joseph with not Bible. What a privilege we have living in this era. What responsibility! Keep preaching! Please don’t give in to what Satan tells you. You know he’s a liar…always has been! Our service/job for the King is NEVER over…only when He calls us home. What wonderful words to hear from our Lord, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant!” Can’t wait to hear them!
Praying for you, your family, CSE, & staff. Stay strong in our Lord.
Dee
Dear PAULUS,
All interpretations of Scripture are not equal. Nor can we rely upon consensus opinion.
Who persecuted the Old Testament prophets? Wasn’t it the very people they went to redeem?
Later, and similarly, who persecuted the “rebel” believers and the Jews after the brief New Testament times? Wasn’t it the same type of religious club? For about 1000 years didn’t they pervert Christianity into persons doing penance, trying to avoid purgatory, and other unbiblical notions?
(Have you ever noticed these two verses?) Luke 11:27-28 “And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” Worshiping and praying to Mary? How unbiblical!
Never pray to saints!! Acts 14:14-15 “Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein.”
Scripture is CLEAR. Take the Bible literally.
Religious leaders who proudly assert “their own interpretations” that violate Scripture are among the worst sorts of false leaders. (I am using this argument above as but one example of such things.) What the Bible teaches and what some religious leaders teach – are sometimes very, very different. -Follow God’s Word.
They (members from the same type of club; at that time called Pharisees and Sadducees) saw Jesus Himself as a threat to their power base. “They” were the religious leaders (not that upstart). Look at how religious they appear on the outside! See the robes? Did you see the altar we made? We’re the official ones!? (they thought).
Take the Bible literally.
6 days, 6000 years ago.
Learn that science and the scientists do not always agree. And … learn that the Bible and the consensus of religious leaders do not always agree.
We live in an age of deception. And they are growing, building one upon the other. You my friend, have a choice. You can study Dr. Hovind’s seminars (and visit: http://www.creationism.org too), or you can follow the broad path as you are now doing.
Either believe God’s Words as most true. Or believe man’s words as most true.
starbird
Said this on November 12th, 2007 at 3:33am:
——————————————————————————–
“Comparing yourself to Joseph is way over the line. Need I remind you he was FALSELY accused. You CLEARLY broke the law!”
What a biased and uninformed statement in my opinion. Dr. Hovind did challenge the tax code and offend the accounting firm known as the IRS (whose contract has expired). Joseph probably offended Pharaoh by worshipping God instead of Pharaoh and his gods. Joseph may have even violated the “CODE” of the household when he refused the advances of his “?employer’s?” wife. What line has Dr. Hovind crossed? Even if he had compared himself with Joseph? Were you the judge in Dr. Hovind’s trial? Please explain how you know, he wasn’t “falsely” accused? Please also explain how Dr. Hovind “clearly” broke the law? Have you ever broken a law (man’s or God’s)? I’ll go out on a limb here and make some comparisons between Dr. Hovind and Joseph. Both are/were men, both had/have arms, legs, a nose, toes, fingers, hair, and skin. I think your argument was a little weak. If you really need to kick somebody while they’re down? Pick someone who IS down! I would suggest that you research the matter at hand and give your replies some thought before posting them.
With love and sympathy for the deceived
three crosses
== Finland – School Shooting – Evolution! ==
=====
(A friend from Finland has made a translation of the letter posted by the Finnish teen who shot others and then himself last week.)
– First, the original Finnish language note.
– Second, the English translation.
(Notice how much his belief in evolution gave him a false historical foundation, that led him to a negative, nihilistic conclusions. -He had decided to act upon his beliefs.)
=====
11:21 Tänään tehdään historiaa!
http://rapidshare.com/files/68015773/Pekka-Eric_Auvinen__...
Viha, se on asia jota olen täynnä ja rakastan sitä. Se on yksi ainoista asioista jota rakastan. Jokin aika sitten uskoin ihmisyyteen ja halusin elää pitkän ja onnellisen elämän… mutta sitten heräsin. Aloin ajatella kaikkea syvemmin ja tiedostin asioita. Mutta eksistentiaalinen pohtiminen ei ollut helppoa… se, kuinka paljon tiedostan asioita, on tehnyt minut onnettomaksi, turhautuneeksi ja vihaiseksi. En vain voi olla onnellinen tässä yhteiskunnassa tai todellisuudessa, jossa elän. Pitkän olemassaolon pohtimisen, yhteiskunnan tarkkailun ja joidenkin muiden elämässäni tapahtuneiden asioiden seurauksena… olen tullut pisteeseen jossa en tunne muuta kuin vihaa ihmisyyttä ja ihmisrotua kohtaan.
Elämä on vain tarkoituksetonta sattumaa… pitkän evolutiivisen kehityksen ja monien eri syiden ja tekijöiden tulosta. Kuitenkin elämä on myös sitä, mitä yksilö sillä haluaa tehdä. Ja minä olen oman elämäni diktaattori sekä jumala. Ja minä olen valinnut tieni. Olen valmistautunut taistelemaan ja kuolemaan ajatteluni puolesta. Minä, luonnollisena valitsijana, eliminoinen kaikki jotka näen epäsopiviksi, häpeäksi ihmiskunnalle sekä luonnonvalinnan virheeksi.
Voitte kysyä itseltänne, miksi tein tämän ja mitä haluan. Noh, suurin osa teistä on liian ylimielisiä ja mieleltään sulkeutuneita, jotta voisitte ymmärtämää… Luultavasti sanotte, että olen ”mielenvikainen”, hullu”, ”psykopaatti”, ”rikollinen” tai muuta tämän tapaista roskaa. Ei, totuus on että olen vain eläin, ihminen, yksilö, toisinajattelija.
Olen saanut tarpeekseni. En halua olla osa tätä kieroutunutta ja mätää yhteiskuntaa. Kuten jotkut viisaat miehet ovat sanoneet, ihmiskunta ei ole puolustamisen arvoinen… vain tappamisen. Mutta… Kun viholliseni juoksevat peloissaan ja piiloutuvat mainitessaan nimeni… Kun korruptoituneiden hallitusten gangsterit on ammuttu kaduilla… Kun idiokraattinen valta ja demokraattinen järjestelmä on korvattu oikeudenmukaisuudella… Kun älykkäät ihmiset ovat vihdoinkin vapaita ja hallitsevat yhteiskuntia idiokraattisen enemmistön sijasta… Sinä suurena vapautuksen päivänä, tiedätte, mitä minä haluan.
Kauan eläköön vallankumous… vallankumous järjestelmää – joka orjuuttaa paitsi heikkomieliset massat, myös älykkäiden yksilöiden pienen vähemmistön – vastaan! Jos haluamme elää erilaisessa maailmassa, meidän tulee toimia. Meidän tulee nousta orjuuttavia, korruptoituneita ja totalitaarisia hallintoja vastaan ja syrjäyttää tyrannit, gangsterit ja idiokraattinen valta. En yksin voi muuttaa asioita paljon, mutta toivottavasti tekoni inspiroi kaikkia maailman älykkäitä yksilöitä jonkinlaiseen maailmanlaajuiseen sotaan ja vallankumoukseen vallitsevia järjestelmiä vastaan. Järjestelmä, joka kriminalisoi luonnollisuuden ja oikeudenmukaisuuden, on viholliseni. Ihmiset, jotka elävät harhamaailmassa ja kannattavat järjestelmää, ovat vihollisiani.
Olen valmis kuolemaan asian puolesta… asian, jonka tiedät olevan oikein, oikeudenmukaista ja totuutta… vaikka häviäisinkin tai taistelu muistettaisiin vain pahana… Mieluummin taistelen ja kuolen kuin elän pitkän ja onnettoman elämän.
Ja muistakaa että tämä on minun sotani, minun ideani ja minun suunnitelmani. Älkää syyttäkö ketään muuta teostani, kuin itseäni. Älkää syyttäkö vanhempiani tai ystäviäni. En kertonut kenellekään suunnitelmistani ja pidin aina ne omassa mielessäni. Älkää syyttäkö elokuvia, joita katson, musiikkia jota kuuntelen, pelejä joita pelaan tai kirjoja joita luen. Ei, niillä ei ole mitään tekemistä tämän kanssa. Tämä on minun sotaani: yhden miehen sotaa ihmisyyttä, hallituksia ja heikkomielisiä massoja vastaan! Ei armoa maapallon saastalle! INHIMILLISYYS ON YLIARVOSTETTUA! On aika laittaa LUONNONVALINTA & SOPEUTUVIMPIEN SELVIYTYMINEN takaisin raiteilleen!
Jokaiselle se minkä hän ansaitsee.
=====
–Below is a rough English translation of it:
“11:21 Today history is made!
http://rapidshare.com/files/68015773/Pekka-Eric_Auvinen__...
Hate. It’s the thing I’m full of and I love it. Its one of the only things I love. Not long ago I believed in humanity and wanted to live long and happy life… but then I woke up. I started thinking everything deeper and acknowledged things. But existential thinking wasn’t easy… that, how much I acknowledge things, have made me unhappy, frustrated and angry. I just cant be happy in this society or reality, that I live. As a result of long existence thinking, society watching and some other things that happened in my life… I have came to a point where I dont feel anything but hate towards humanity, the human race.
Life is just a meaningless coincidence… a result of long evolutionary development and of many different causes and reasons. However life is also that, whatever an individual wants to do with it. And I am the dictator and god of my own life. And I have chosen my way. I am prepared to fight and die for my thinking. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate everyone that I see as unfit, a disgrace to humankind or an error to natural selection.
You can ask yourself, why I did this and what I want. Well, most of you are too arrogant and closeminded, so you could not understand… Propably you will say, that i’m “mentaly ill”, “crazy”, “psycopathic”, “criminal” or some other garbage like that. No, the truth is that i’m just an animal, a human, individual, an alternative thinker.
I’ve had enough. I dont want to be part of this twisted and corrupted system. As some wise men have said, humankind is not worth defending… only killing. But… when my enemies run frigthened and hide when they mention my name… When corrupted government gangsters have been shot on the streets… When idiocratic (new word, idiot and cratic – together, e.g. demo-cratic; idio-cratic or idio-cracy) power in a democratic society have been replaced with justice… When intelligent people are finally free and rule the governments, instead of the current idiocratic masses… On that great day of liberty, you know, that is what I want.
Long live the revolution! Revolution against the system – that enslaves not only weakminded massess, but also the minority of intelligent people – Against! If we want to live in a different world, we have to act. We got to raise against enslaving, corrupted and totaltitarian govenrments and move dismantle tyrants, gangsters and idioctatic rule. I alone can’t change much, but hopefully my act will inspire every intelligent individual in the world for some sort of global war and revolution against current rules. A rule, that criminalises naturality and justice, is my enemy. People, who live in illusionworld and keep the system going, are my enemies.
I am ready to die for my cause… a cause, that I know to be right, with justice and truth… even if I lose or if my fight would only be remembered as a bad thing… I’d rather fight and die than live a long and unhappy life.
And remember that this is my war, my idea, my plan. Dont blame anyone else from my doing this, but me. Don’t blame my parents or friends. I didn’t tell anyone about my plan and I kept it in my own mind. Dont blame movies that I watch, or music I listen to, games I play, or books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man’s war against humanity, governments and weakminded masses! No mercy for Scums of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It’s time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on track!
May everyone get, what they deserve”
(End of translated letter from the evolutionized-youth in Finland, from last week.)
A Great Video! (One hour long)
“STARTLING PROOFS – Does God Really Exist?”
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1760096128712631511
“STARTLING PROOFS – Does God Really Exist?”
Because this will probably get censored I’ll only mention one of the many errors in the video (text comes from accompanying e-book)
“The distance between the Earth and the sun is about 93 million miles. Did you realize that if this distance were changed by only 2% in either direction, life on Earth would be impossible?
“The Sun-Earth distance varies in fact by 3.4% over the year, and the Earth reaches perihelion on January 2. While a 3.4% distance variation certainly leads to a small variation of the net energy flux to Earth, heat absorption and release by the oceans almost completely damps this variation in the course of one year.” Source
http://216.240.133.177/Kennedy/07/
This site contains audio files about getting out of jail. (prison extractment)
Three Crosses,
Kent was not falsely accused. A jury of Kent’s peers unanimously judged the 58 counts (accusations) were true. The majority of the charges were not even related to taxes or the IRS. It’s also worth noting that Kent offered no defense to the charges – none.
But these facts have been offered again and again in this forum, and continue to be ignored in favor of revisionist views of his offenses.
“Although Finland has the world’s third-largest per capita handgun ownership, violent incidents are rare at the country’s schools. Previous school confrontations have involved knives at worst and no one has died.” – Daily Mail .
The poor chap seems to have been as confused about the ToE as most posters to this site. In the wild there is no intelligent agency which drives the process and members of a species tend not to destroy each other for reasons of personal philosophy let alone kill themselves.
This disastrous event is no more relevant to the ToE than the Jim Jones Cult is relevant to mainstream Christianity. The Theory of Gravity is not falsified because a relatively small number of people each year commit suicide by jumping off cliffs.
Djhouk,
Kent was not falsely accused? How do you know? Do you know what the 58 counts were? Do you know what the Structuring Law is?
Istvan
Dear Samphire,
I received the 4 or 5 messages you sent in. But … please study creation theory. Again, you do not have a frame of reference in order to compare evolution with creation since you have only studied one side.
Beliefs do indeed lead to actions.
50 years ago (pre-evolution-believing-America), many Protestant churches had big bulletin boards in the back showing all the missionaries they supported. They believed the Bible. God’s Word needed to be spread around the world! More missionaries were needed.
Belief that God is weak or nonexistent has ravaged many churches leaving behind some churches with immature Christians who don’t take the Bible literally. This is a tragedy. Today many American churches spend more on their A-V systems than on missionaries.
If a fanatical Muslim believes that he’ll get 72 Virginians upon death for killing lots of infidels, it can affect his behavior. Gee, why not die while killing others? Think of the benefits?
If an atheist believes that God is not there, it (again) impacts his actions.
Perhaps you are limited in your ability to think abstractly? Can’t you put yourself into another person’s shoes?
Don’t answer. Just go back and study Creation theory. Then come back. … sorry …. Paul Abramson
Istvan
Said this on November 13th, 2007 at 12:18pm:
Kent was not falsely accused? How do you know?
*******
Geno:
1) Because Mr. Hovind has a long history (dating back to before 1996) of doing anything possible to avoid paying taxes… all the way to filing bankruptcy and lying on sworn documents in that case.
2) Because Mr. Hovind, had an opportunity, during his trial, to dispute the allegations or provide evidence supporting his case. He did neither.
********
Istvan:
Do you know what the 58 counts were?
**********
Geno:
Yes. Despite Mr. Hovind’s claims that no one can tell him what law he was accused of violating, each count of the indictment must specify a specific section of the law that was allegedly violated. Mr. Hovind’s indictment was no exception. If he wanted (or wants) to know what laws he was charged with breaking, all he needed to do was read the indictment.
***********
Istvan:
Do you know what the Structuring Law is?
Geno:
Yes. It is a law designed to prevent people from structuring bank transactions to avoid the reporting requirements when cash transactions exceed $10,000.
Oh yeah… before any Hovindites start arguing the “constitutionality” of the laws, there is an old saying among lawyers. It goes something like:
“When your client is innocent, argue the facts. When he is guilty, argue the law.”
Which is Mr. Hovind arguing?
RE: Dear Samphire,
I received the 4 or 5 messages you sent in. But … please study creation theory. Again, you do not have a frame of reference in order to compare evolution with creation since you have only studied one side.
From Josh:
I haven’t seen them posted on this blog. I think it was good to give him a forum for his beliefs. They actually strengthen my faith in creation. It is good to read what devout evolutionists such as Samphire believe. As Christians, we can see just how unstable their foundation is.
I love the Lord Jesus Christ! He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one will come to the Father except through Him!
Maranatha!
“a fanatical Muslim believes that he’ll get 72 Virginians upon death for killing lots of infidels”
Hmmm… do you think a Muslim could negotiate and get 72 Floridians or Texans instead?
[EDITOR'S NOTE: There is a joke about the Virginians, and the suicide bomber getting beat up several times after dying, as there was a mistranslation he didn't know about. It was Virginians, not virgins, that he had actually been promised. Then after he murders lots of complete strangers whom he had never met before and kills himself, but instead of being rewarded, the Virginians are lining up to pummel him instead. P.A. ]
Hey Paul Abramson!
Here’s some feed back:
Dr Hovind also teaches the Hydroplate theory in one of his college classes. I think it’s the 2nd one. The Ice Epic mainly has to do with the canopy & what started the Flood.
The author puts forth a theory that says it was a bombardment from outer-space. Walt Brown thinks it could have resulted from the water expanding due to heat build up caused by the tides in the underwater global lake. What ever the cause, the evidence from the ocean floor maps indicate that the land mass slid away from the Mid Ocean Ridge. The more detailed the map, the more clear the story!
I have found that most people who are into Catastrophic Plate Tectonics are not familiar with the Hydroplate Theory.
“If … waters were washing over the Earth in continent-crossing tidal waves it could explain the existence of these huge long water-carved canyons in areas that are now settled, and deep underwater.” P.A.
Well… that doesn’t explain why the canyons are long aches & why they join at cusps. Get yourself a detailed world ocean floor map & hang it up behind your computer, so that when you look above the screen, you see the map. Don’t get a tiny one ! Get a big one, & study it!
One of the things that the ‘continent-crossing tidal waves’ does explain is why the Ark rested in the mountains of Ararat in the 7th month. The underwater mountains formed a ‘bay’ & they were surrounded by another ‘bay’ (made up by underwater mountain chains) that protected the Ark from those global tidal waves. The tops of the mountains didn’t appear until the tenth month.
You people really need to wake up … [EDITED ...]
[EDITOR'S NOTE: We understand the perspective of skeptics and that the truth cannot be believed nor should it even be taught, so they think.
Since "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" then creation is the scientific theory, correct? Otherwise one must put his or her faith in "something from nothing for no reason" which is unscientific.
Evolution has become the dominant false religion of our day. It has destroyed tens of millions of lives directly (via Communism, Nazism, etc.) when its beliefs have been institutionalized. "We are the master race..." Hitler taught, based on his evolutionized beliefs. "Religion is the opiate of the masses..." the communists taught, with the belief that any kind of belief in God had to be wrong. Did they "need to wake up" too? Are you in favor of mass murder? Look where your belief system leads to! Curtailing our freedom of speech (or the desire to do such) is but one step towards a dark evil future, based on evolutionary beliefs. P.A. ]
Dear Brother Hovind,
I am not sure how this “blog thing” works but I hope you get this.
I wanted to share with you a poem that one of our men wrote for my newsletter.
“Your Choice”
In the beginning God created
A stated truth can’t be debated
The moon, the stars, the heavens and earth
God spoke the word and gave them birth.
Then came along some brilliant man?
Who said he had a better plan
By searching back his family tree
He cam upon a chimpanzee
Disturbed by this discovery
Afraid of heights, this cannot be
He thought he found the truth at last
Life stated from a mighty blast.
Or maybe-way, way back in time
All started from a little slime
You may believe what scoffers say
I’ll take creation any day
No matter what some folks believe
My family starts with Adam and Eve.
By: Peter Lobbregt
of Yates Thagard Baptist Church
Carthage, NC
I am not sure if you remember us but we are praying for you and just wanted you to know our children never forget to lift you up in every prayer. Our son never forgets…
Our prayers are being answered because Elizabeth told us the many men you have lead to our Saviour! Praise God!
In Christ & Serving,
Rhonda Murphy
djhouk
Said this on November 13th, 2007 at 12:22am:
dj”Kent was not falsely accused.”
I guess it should be Dr. Hovind could have been falsely convicted.
dj”A jury of Kent’s peers unanimously judged the 58 counts (accusations) were true.”
A “hand picked jury” is not “peers” look it up. I seriously doubt a jury of God fearing, Bible believing Christians who had studied the heinous actions of the IRS would have found him guilty.
dj”The majority of the charges were not even related to taxes or the IRS.”
Quite right! They were related to drug trafficking and money laundering. Are you falsely accusing Dr. Hovind of laundering money and dealing drugs?
dj”It’s also worth noting that Kent offered no defense to the charges – none.”
Wow! That’s a good point he was accused of not breaking the law on purpose, and he didn’t deny it.
Did you know the state of Colorado has a charge of “driving while assumed intoxicated”? It means somebody thought you “MIGHT!” be intoxicated. Surprise, surprise there is no defense for it. This is because; there was no crime. They do this so they have something to charge you with no matter what.
dj”But these facts have been offered again and again in this forum, and continue to be ignored in favor of revisionist views of his offenses.”
You should research the differences between the words “fact” and your “opinion”. When you confuse the two you post could mislead people.
With love and patience for the deceived
three crosses
I received the 4 or 5 messages you sent in. But … please study creation theory. Again, you do not have a frame of reference in order to compare evolution with creation since you have only studied one side.
While CSE can run their blogs anyway they want, would it be more constructive to see what Samphire’s supposed erroneous thinking is? I would love to see what he/she said and why their specific argument is flawed (or not). While I’m sure it was not P.A’s intention, it appears a dissenting opinion has been censored.
Istvan
Said this on November 13th, 2007 at 12:18pm:
——————————————————————————–
Kent was not falsely accused? How do you know? Do you know what the 58 counts were? Do you know what the Structuring Law is?
Yes, actually, I DO know what the 58 counts were; and yes, I DO know the sections of US code pertaining to “structuring”.
I have, in fact, posted links to Kent’s indictment in this very blog. I’d be happy to repost them.
Brother Kent,
I thank God always for you, in my prayers,
Thank-you again for your wonderful ability to translate in understandable language, the physical and spiritual comparisons. I love to read your knee-mails! You are such an encouragment to the ones of us who’s commings and goings are not confined, yet sometimes feel things should go better for us, be easier for us,…
>
Also, some may not be confined behind physical detentions, but are imprisioned in their mind and understanding, to the point they do not have the capacity to ‘see’ beyond their experience. They are limmited by their own understanding. There is a lot more ‘reality’ in the world than any one persons ability to experience… Our Creator gives us His Word so that we can learn past our own understanding and by faith move past our limited experience, into His.
We must pray for spiritual ‘eyes’. How many times His Word says, “Having eyes, they don’t see, …”
If you do not want them, you do not have to have them… It is possable to exist in ignorance, thinking you know… “ever learning, never coming to a knowledge”. Some will just be ” willingly ignorant”.
Sisterfriend
Three Crosses Said this on November 13th, 2007 at 8:32pm:
“A “hand picked jury” is not “peers” look it up.”
We have no constitutional right to a jury of our peers. On the contrary, we have a right to an impartial jury.
And Mr. Hovind had every opportunity to ensure the jury was completely impartial.
“Quite right! They were related to drug trafficking and money laundering. Are you falsely accusing Dr. Hovind of laundering money and dealing drugs?”
Do you still beat your wife?
Money laundering is the practice of engaging in financial transactions in order to conceal the identity, source, and/or destination of money. Seems that’s exactly what Mr. Hovind was doing by structuring withdrawals to prevent the bank making a report.
A good defense against that (assuming it’s true) is “that’s just a coincidence, that really was the exact amount of money I needed at the time.” Of course, Mr. Hovind would have to take the stand and be cross-examined. There’s a good reason why he wouldn’t want to do that.
(I have no idea where you get drug trafficking from, apart from the fact that drug dealers often launder money.)
“…he was accused of not breaking the law on purpose…”
No, he wasn’t.
“Did you know the state of Colorado has a charge of “driving while assumed intoxicated”?”
From Google:
Your search – “driving while assumed intoxicated” – did not match any documents.
Djhouk and Geno,
OK, so you say you know what the Structuring Law is. Good. Then I have a little riddle for you:
Let’s say you go to the bank and withdraw less than $10,000, say $8,000 in November, December, January, and so on. Do you or do you not violate the Structuring Law? Do you or do you not commit a crime? How can anybody prove that you withdrew less than $10,000 in order to avoid the BSA reporting requirement?
Since you seem to know quite a bit about Dr. Hovind’s case, here is another question:
How did the IRS find out about the alleged act of structuring?
Istvan
CMarychurch,
You said: “While CSE can run their blogs anyway they want, would it be more constructive to see what Samphire’s supposed erroneous thinking is? I would love to see what he/she said and why their specific argument is flawed (or not).”
Paul Abramson has asked Samphire several times to start his own blog. So far Samphire has chosen not to do that. I wonder why… If he had his own blog, he could tell you and anyone else what he thinks. And he would also learn that the humble blog moderator’s life is perhaps not as easy as one might think.
Istvan
NOVA “Judgment Day” “Intelligent Design on Trial”
Hiding from our Maker has become acceptable and even preferred as our society and its values turn upside-down.
They claim that “science” sides with random chance improvements. And that “religion” sides with recognizing design when we see it. This is tragic to see this happening. Many intelligent people are falling for evolution and its pseudo-science.
Evolution teaches – that our lives are the result of a random chance “Big Bang” explosion, followed by lots of time and unscientific (anti-entropy) improvements. Life makes no difference, they think. There is no life after death, no God who will judge them, so get it now in this life. If you “don’t get caught” then you were “smart”. Lies, deceit, and immorality will naturally result from such a religion.
Today they have metal detectors in many American schools. -Evolution is taught.
Every day there are thousands more teens who contract venereal diseases. -Evolution is taught.
Every day in the US there are some 4000 abortions of unborn children. -Evolution is taught.
Suicide rates have become high (naturally, of course) when one believes that he or she has no hope; told that they should not pray; told that God does not love them. -Evolution is taught.
Evolution is not science. Belief in “survival of the meanest” and “survival of the most deceitful” does not improve a society.
See Dr. Hovind’s Seminar #4, “Lies in the Textbooks” http://shopping.drdino.com/view_item.php?id=830
Someone placed it on YouTube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A5J5evEru4
“Honesty is the best policy” and “I cannot tell a lie” are relegated to the “unsophisticated” and the “religious” folks. Evolutionists are hiding from God, or at the least claiming that He is weak. Their errant values … are turning right and wrong upside-down.
Paul-
That is interesting that you bring up the NOVA show. I watched that too. I especially think it is interesting that you closed your post with the “honesty is the best policy” thing. I’m sure you noticed that it was the christian school board members who were trying to bring creationism into the schools who were caught lying under oath. In fact, one testified that he had no idea who had bought the textbooks, when in fact he had handed the money to his own father, who had then purchased the books.
I also thought it was interesting that the woman who brought the lawsuit received death threats, as did the judge who decided the case. Is that what Jesus would do? WWJK? I wonder if you will go so far as to defend the lies and the death threats.
[EDITOR'S NOTE: This is a debate with very little - if any - middle ground. Either God is in control (and those denying it are in a delusion) or humans are in control (and those denying it are in a delusion). My complaint in my previous post, as I have stated other times as well, is what evolution does to a society and how it pulls down the value of human life. Christianity itself becomes weakened, I would contend. Evolution did that in Germany in the 1930s, and I would contend that it is having a parallel effect in America today.
One should not "lie for God" but if one has been "evolutionized" or one is called a Christian (while not having internalized Christian teachings like: "Do not bear false witness" or "overcome evil with good"), that does not ensure honor in their character.
This debate, as you and I know, contenders though we be - can bring out the best and the worst in folks.
Death threats ... how terrible. ... It is unfortunate that this entire topic cannot always be discussed in a civil manner. There is very little middle ground. P.A. ]
With all the talk about random chance, why is it that with all of man’s presumed intelligence can he not generate a truly random number. Without the ability to generate a random number how is it possible to prove that “random” chance even exists?
Just a random thought.
Gene Schmeling
[EDITOR'S NOTE: Excellent point! I think many people do not realize that mathematically we cannot generate truly random numbers. A "seed" is needed in order to begin any partially randomizing process. Something from nothing for no reason is inherently unscientific. ]
Istvan asked some good questions about the federal anti-structured transaction laws under which Mr. Hovind was convicted. I’m an attorney with some experience in related matters, and can answer those questions… but Mr. Abramson has been extremely vigilant lately about purging awkward and inconvenient facts. I’m not sure if I’ll be allowed to post answers, as they’re not generally conducive to the cult of personality CSE is building here. I hate to let good questions go unanswered, though, especially since those who are still allowed to post don’t let their ignorance get in the way of naked and hugely erroneous assertions about law and the facts of the case. (See, i.e., Three Crosses’ completely inaccurate and misleading assertion that Mr. Hovind’s conviction was “related to drug trafficking.” No, it wasn’t. Please don’t speak out of ignorance, as it misleads those who don’t realize how little you know about the case.)
Istvan’s first question was, Let’s say you go to the bank and withdraw less than $10,000, say $8,000 in November, December, January, and so on. Do you or do you not violate the Structuring Law? Do you or do you not commit a crime? How can anybody prove that you withdrew less than $10,000 in order to avoid the BSA reporting requirement?
The answer is that it depends on your intent. The law, which I think is 31 U.S.C. sec. 5324 et seq., makes it a crime to structure your transactions “for the purpose of evading the reporting requirements of” federal law. Those requirements basically instruct banks to file a “Currency Transaction Report” (“CTR”) when you withdraw $10,000 or more. (One of the purposes behind this requirement was to track drug traffickers, which is where Three Crosses got confused. It’s no longer the primary purpose for the law, however, and is very frequently used to trip up tax evaders, embezzlers, and even terrorists.) There’s nothing wrong with having a CTR filed on you – it happens all the time. But if you, like Mr. Hovind, are illegally paying your employees under the table and keeping the money that legally should be going to pay their payroll taxes, you know that the CTRs can be used in an investigation or as evidence against you.
It was that intent that made the Hovinds’ structuring a crime. Similarly, it’s not illegal (for the sake of argument) to fire a gun into the air, unless you intend to frighten someone into handing over their wallet. Intent can make all the difference between an innocent action and a crime. It can be hard to prove, but not when you’ve blatantly violated federal law in other ways, as with Mr. Hovind’s payroll tax fraud. You or I could walk into a bank and make $9,999 withdrawals all day long without getting into trouble, as long as we (A) had the money to withdraw and (B) weren’t trying to prevent the bank from filing its CTR. If you’re doing it for fun, or for educational purposes, or for any reason other than interfering with the bank’s reporting requirements, it’s not a crime. When you do it to interfere with that requirement, it’s a crime (called “smurfing”). They prove your intent most of the time by looking at what you were doing with the money. Here, they proved to a jury of Mr. Hovind’s peers that he was committing another, separate crime, and that there was no other possible purpose to the structuring than to help cover up that crime by keeping the bank from filing CTRs.
Istvan also asked, How did the IRS find out about the alleged act of structuring?
To avoid creating a paper trail, Mr. and Mrs. Hovind started withdrawing less than $10,000 at a time to pay their employees. Because they needed lots of cash to pay their employees under the table, though, they had to make lots of these transactions. Bank tellers are aware of the CTR requirements, and smart enough to realize when someone is playing games. A teller who thinks her customer is smurfing will file a “Suspicious Transaction Report” (“SAR”) with the Department of the Treasury. I don’t know for a fact that anyone filed a SAR on Mr. Hovind–they’re kept secret to protect people’s privacy–but it’s the most likely source of the information.
Incidentally, Three Crosses asserted that “A ‘hand picked jury’ is not ‘peers’ look it up.” Juries are not “hand picked.” A panel of potential jurors, called a “venire,” is randomly drawn from the voting registration rolls. Both lawyers–in this case, the prosecution and Mr. Hovind’s attorney, then have a certain number of peremptory strikes they use to send home people they don’t want on the jury. There are restrictions, pursuant to the Batson case–you can’t strike someone based on their race, primarily, and striking on religious grounds is frowned upon and illegal in some states. (Many prosecutors will strike Jehovah’s Witnesses, however, and courts will generally allow that, because there is a pervasive believe that JWs often forget until it’s time to deliberate that their religion tells them not to sit in judgment on other people, leading to a mistrial.)
At any rate, insofar as the jury was “picked,” Mr. Hovind’s lawyer did 50% of the picking. And the resulting jury was certainly a jury of Mr. Hovind’s peers. You don’t get a jury made up just of your race, or just your religion, or just your gender. This is America, and you get a jury of Americans. Your peers, in the eyes of the law, are your fellow citizens.
Anyway, I hope this post gets through the new ideological screening requirements. I don’t understand why practitioners of a religion based on repentance find it so hard to believe that their idol, and I use the word advisedly, did something illegal and unethical and is paying a penalty prescribed by law. No one is asking you to condemn him, or call him a bad person, or abandon him in your thoughts or prayers. But falsely painting him as a martyr and insisting, against all fact, reason, and evidence, that he’s completely innocent, is just wrong. It’s likely to lead people like Mrs. Hovind astray, and eventually, they’ll suffer for having been misled. This isn’t a game–real people could be hurt, and badly, by the constant droning repetition that Mr. Hovind is an innocent victim of some evil conspiracy. He’s really not; he just committed a crime, like tens of thousands of people do every year. It’s not the end of the world.
An addendum to my last post – I have news that I’m not sure the staff here would be aware of. An amusing legal opinion has been making the legal gossip rounds: http://blogs.enotes.com/decision-blog/2007-11/easterbrook-chews-out-tax-protestors-attorney/. Judge Easterbrook is one of the most respected living judges, and a very blunt and straightforward man. In this opinion, he finds an attorney’s arguments so ridiculous and frivolous that he (and the two other judges on the case) found the lawyer to be less competent in the law than a pro se, or layperson. He has required the attorney to show good cause, within two weeks, for why the court should not fine him $10,000 and suspend him from the practice of law for, essentially, gross incompetence.
This is relevant to this audience because the attorney is Jerold Barringer, whom I believe is Jo Hovind’s attorney. I honestly hope she is not relying on him to handle her appeal; the court specifically indicates that it doesn’t believe that he has the ability “to litigate an appeal competently and responsibly.” (Mr. Barringer’s work, as described in that opinion, really is shockingly and irresponsibly awful.) Can someone here fill us in? Is Mr. Barringer representing Mr. and/or Mrs. Hovind? On the practical side of things, if he is suspended, it may well significantly delay their appeals.
Evolution is not science. Belief in “survival of the meanest” and “survival of the most deceitful” does not improve a society.
How ironic that you choose to be deceitful in this manner. Evolutionary theory has nothing to do “survival of the meanest” or “survival of the most deceitful.” These are colorful concepts you made up to slander science that you don’t like. “Survival of the fittest,” as I know has been explained to you, refers to reproductive fitness, or differential success is creating reproducing offspring. Please do not deceive your audience with these snide and dishonest vignettes. It’s not honest.
[EDITOR'S NOTE: I realize there is a difference between biological heredity & variation with its "survival of the fittest" - which is perfectly valid, as built-in by the Designer and social Darwinism with its attendant effects in human minds.
Honesty is not rewarded by a value system that gives greater credence to the appearance of honesty than to its substance. When I state what evolutionary beliefs do to a society it is not primarily to insult but to identify its effects. You and I will have to disagree on this one. There is a meanness growing in Western society. It does not come from nowhere. It is due to changing beliefs about our place in the universe and in the value of humans, which evolution ascribes as but a cosmic accident and that there is no life beyond this one. And beliefs then, ahem, lead to actions. P.A. ]
Learned Hand,
Thank you for your reply. However, there is another question. What was the legal status of CSE between the period examined? Was CSE an incorporated entity i.e. a company, or was it an unincorporated group?
I guess, having an incompetent attorney is very bad news indeed. You can get into big trouble if you take the advice of an incompetent attorney. Kent Hovind said this: “Getting a degree from an accredited university does not guarantee any level of intelligence.” or words to that effect. Was Kent Hovind’s attorney also incompetent? And what happens if you take an incompetent attorney’s poor advice and land in jail? What does that make you? A felon or a victim? Or both? I mean you take an attorney’s advice, because you would be lost in the labyrinth of law. How many attorneys should you ask before you can be sure that you are not committing a crime by doing something? I guess telling the judge in court that I only followed my attorney’s advice would make you look silly…
Istvan
To djhouk from Nov, 14 comment:
I have read a number of your comments where you have stated that Kent “never even defended himself”, I would like to remind you,neither did Jesus Christ when they accused him, (and please don’t accuse me of comparing Kent to Christ). My husband who I believe is a true man of God has often taught our 4 Sons, “if you know you are right and you argue you are a fool, and if you are wrong and you argue you are a fool”. The only real truth is that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and will judge right from wrong, we need not fear man. God Bless you.
Beloved brother Kent Hovind,
The God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, Jehovah the man of war; whose mercies endureth forever & ever will glorify himself in this situation you’re going theough.
It’s indeed a training for a divine agenda. His will be done in Jesus name.
Remain blessed & close to the Lord.
Sade Tennyson